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Shamu
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Posted: August 01 2023 at 11:35am |
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That almost exactly duplicates my similar experiment & its results.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Goosic
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Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8842 |
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Posted: August 01 2023 at 12:38pm |
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As Shamu stated about his own experience with his 700. You eventually will come to a wall with your handloads and your rifle can only be accurized to a point. After that, it becomes, "This is all that my rifle and load are capable of" and not, "This is the best that I can do."
The point I am attempting to make is spend an equal amount of time working at the loading bench developing your load as well as working on unlocking your rifles potential. I once knew a man that was undoubtedly the best Front Engine Dragster "Wheel Man" in the sport of Drag Racing but, for all intents and purposes, that is all that he was, at the beginning of his career. The owners of the car built it around this man, made the engine work exceptionally well on their limited budget by running it on 100% pure and undiluted Nitromethane and tossed out the Blowers idler pulley because it was reducing horsepower and was basically a redundant part to begin with. The owners and builders then gave this "Accurized Rifle with the Super Match Load" to the "Shooter" and watched as he successfully out-shot 142 other shooters one weekend in the early 60's. The wheel man then began a journey of trying to improve on becoming a much better wheel man by focusing on both his driving skills as well as what could be done to improve the cars handling characteristics. They did test and tunes with different tires, different parachutes, a more direct fuel delivery system and a highly improved magneto. It eventually became a, "This is the best this car will ever be" even though the all three men continued to spend countless hours at the work bench and at the track. Unfortunately, the wheel man was driving an untested car in the late 60's and a mishap occurred prematurely ending his life's journey. His son continues on in his fathers stead continuously developing improved driving strategies as well as improving the cars capabilities...
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: August 01 2023 at 2:14pm |
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I think in my case it’s both “the best I can do” and “all the rifle and ammo is capable of”. The point being that those additional steps I listed had no impact on the result. Statistically insignificant. That is either because it actually has no benefit for that rifle or my skills are not up to the task of revealing the differences.
If it’s the latter, I need more range time. If the former, then the extra time at the loading bench is not worth it. I’m not saying to just skip load development, it can and does produce dividends. I’m referring to those additional steps that are intended to make more consistent ammunition. I am nowhere near this countries top shooter. I do hold a NRA High Master Service Rifle rifle classification, and lots of guys and gals are High Masters. But looking back on my experience, I have concluded that the most gains have been made by dedicated effort to master the shooting position fundamentals and not from making the absolute best possible loads. Load tweaking can be fun, but it’s only made a difference for me on a few occasions. Every single High Master shooter I’ve talked to has said the same thing. Consistency in the fundamentals of shooting is everything. No doubt in my mind that the AR is an accurate rifle for its purpose and can shoot accurately enough to win regional and national matches with using only basic reloading procedures or using factory ammunition. Now, as you move away from Service Rifle shooting in the direction of Benchrest, then those extra things can make a difference for those rifles as Shamu has shown. As they say, your mileage may vary, this is just my experience for what it’s worth to our forum members. |
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A square 10
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Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 16997 |
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Posted: August 01 2023 at 8:26pm |
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you shoot well my friend , at this point im looking at the rifles limitations as you seemingly have eliminated almost everything else [i cant think of anything else] i have a couple friends here that rebarrel
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shiloh
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Joined: January 08 2019 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 3049 |
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 4:00am |
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The school I went to was full of High Masters
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britrifles
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 4:51am |
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Thank you ASquare10.
As you might recall, I removed and reinstalled the barrel on the Long Branch Mk 1/2 I got from you to facilitate refinishing the metal. Wasn’t easy getting the barrel off. The barrel was in good condition other than a bit of muzzle wear. It’s a good shooter too.
This post was initially about my 7.62 loads for the DCRA conversion. That rifle had only been fired for proof at Long Branch before I got it. It’s a very good barrel, still a lot of life left in it. I might go back thru my score books and count the number of rounds I’ve fired, then track it going forward. I have another DCRA which probably only has about 200 rounds thru it, it’s also an excellent shooter, it belonged to a good friend of my Dad. I do think a barrel change is coming soon for my Fulton Regulated No. 4 primary shooter, might be a job for this winter. The groups have opened up and x ring count has dropped. Estimated 10,000 rounds thru that barrel, I learned to shoot on that rifle. These 50 rounds of 7.62/.308 are the most consistent reloads I’ve ever done. They have the least amount of bullet runout I’ve measured so far, thanks to the Wilson Dies, even better than the neck sized cases done on my Lee Collet die and bullets seated with standard Lee seater. In all four rifle cartridges I’ve loaded (.223, .308, .303 and .30-06), the single common cause for eccentric bullets originate from full length sizing with a standard die that has a neck expander. A collet neck sizer is a big improvement. For Full Length (or partial length) sizing, the bushing type dies with no neck expander does much better, almost as good as the collet neck sizer. The Wilson In-Line seater die also makes an improvement, especially with long secant ogive bullets. I’ve wondered how many rifle rounds I’ve reloaded over the years. My guess is on the order of 30,000. It eventually becomes a chore and a means to feed my shooting sport. |
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Goosic
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 10:45am |
...That is Funny...
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britrifles
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 10:59am |
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My school was too, particularly our physics teacher!
![]() But, that's not what I was referring to. The skill classifications are: rifleman, sharpshooter, expert, master and high master. Might be something unique to the US competitive shooting sports.
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shiloh
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 4:53pm |
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Brit, I know, just having some fun. Cheers
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britrifles
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Posted: August 05 2023 at 3:02pm |
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Here’s what my shooting friend does at the range. He tweaks his load, throwing charges directly into the case on the bench with his Harrell’s powder measure. He was loading for several heavy barreled rifles, a .308 and 6.5 of some sort. Unbelievable accuracy, 600 yard five shot groups that were less than 2 inches apart, one of his groups was less than one inch at that range. He was shooting off the bench with good scope, at least 15x, a 25x on one of them I think. He didn’t even have a powder scale with him. He’s a phenomenal shooter, I’ve learned a lot from him. Needless to say, he usually wins every match he enters and made to the final stage of the Presidents 100. Wished I had taken some pics of his targets.
![]() I was doing some load tests myself on my AR, and also attempted to chrono my Long Range loads for my No. 4 DCRA 7.62 conversion. I must have had the Magnetospeed sensor mounted too low below the barrel, could not get any readings. I only shot four rounds of the 155 grain Palma MK and 3 rounds of the 168 TMK. At 200 yards, the TMK won out, less than 1 MOA shot prone with aperture sights. These were loaded with my Lee dies, still have not tried my “Super Match” loads done on the Wilson dies. ![]() It does seem that the 168 TMKs need to be fairly close to the lands for good accuracy, these were seated 0.020 off the lands, the COL was 2.95 inches, too long to feed from the magazine. Three shot group was at 1.6 inches at 200 yards. 44.0 grains of Varget, Lapua case, CCI BR-2 primer. |
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Goosic
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Posted: August 05 2023 at 3:47pm |
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As you have already stated. Your milage may vary and, to each his own as is the case here.
To me however, what your friend is doing seems a little bit hap-hazardous and slightly dangerous, "Tweaking" his loads out in the open like that. I am actually surprised that the Shooting Range even allows for that. Our Ranges out here strictly forbid it. Too high of a risk to the other shooters and to the range itself should a fire occur if the gun powder is ignited somehow. Lester Bruno of Bruno's Shooters Supply gave me a new box of Lapua (167grn/10.85g 7.83mm/.308 OTM Scenar) projectiles to try out in my 7.62 Enfield. They "look" more slippery than the SMK's...
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britrifles
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Posted: August 06 2023 at 4:05am |
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Yeah, I was a bit surprised, but I’ve seen it before at other ranges. Usually done by Benchrest shooters. He used a Lee hand press to seat the bullets. Not sure I would do this, but not seen any rules prohibiting reloading on the firing line.
The 167 Scenar is the bullet that Creedmoor loads into their .30-06 and .308 Match ammo. The .30-06 is very accurate in the 03A1 and A4 sniper rifles at 300 and 600 yds and what I’ve used in the sniper matches. Let us know how they shoot for you. |
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Shamu
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Posted: August 06 2023 at 10:18am |
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When I'm fine-tuning a new load that's pretty much what I do, but more simplistically. I do all the case prep, sizing & priming at home on the Dillon, then I go to the range with my "best" theoretical load finished. Fire for performance & if needed dump measured charges from my Lyman #55 which conveniently clamps to the bench to throw a short load & trickle onto a PACT battery-powered scale till "perfect" & seat with a Lee loader to my desired depth! Tip, the clear plastic "tubs" for volume CDs or DVDs make great disposable wind shields.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Goosic
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Posted: August 06 2023 at 11:58am |
Here ya go Geoff. 10 shots @100 yards and on an official SR-1 NRA approved target.
The rifle kicks like a pissed off bull to... |
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britrifles
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Posted: August 08 2023 at 6:44pm |
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I discovered another bullet to test in the No. 4 DCRA 7.62 conversion. Sierra has a 169 gr MatchKing. It has an extended boat tail, closed point and tangent ogive. It will remain supersonic and stable beyond 1000 yards loaded to .308 Win specs. G1 BC is .527 for velocities above 2180 fps, a significant improvement over the old 168 SMK.
This bullet should have the insensitivity to bullet jump (distance to the lands) that the 168 grain MK has, so a good choice for long throated barrels. Looks like my search for the best long range load for the DCRA just got restarted… |
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britrifles
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Posted: September 02 2023 at 4:49am |
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I got back to the 1000 yard range today to test the load that is the subject of this thread. Without going back and reading the OP, to summarize, it was a “super match” load taking every possible step I could think of to produce the most consistent load possible. Weighed out cases and individual charges. Checked and sorted for neck concentricity and bullet runout (0.000 to 0.004 inch max). Bullet weights were very consistent as expected for Sierra MatchKings. Cases were partial length sized to headspace .001 under the chamber dimension, near perfect fit.
Well, the results were a bit disappointing. My regular match load using the Lee Collet Neck die did better. I had 20 rounds of the neck sized cases left, and shot those first at 800 and 1000 yards. I only shot 7 rounds at 800 as I wanted to reserve three shots for sighters at 1000. The wind was very twitchy, constantly changing direction at various locations down the range. Wind flags would suddenly change, for example, the 100 yard flags would be blowing one way and the 600 yard flags the other way, then again a different direction at 800. Here’s the first group at 800 yards, includes the first clean cold bore shots (no sighters or fouling shots) with my regular match load with neck sized cases (Lee Collet Die). I did make sight adjustments to try and bring the group into the center. The vertical spread was good, just under 1 MOA, but you can see I struggled with the wind, took 7 shots to find the X ring. Very respectable standard deviation of 5.2 fps. ![]() Next, the same regular match load neck sized and shot at 1000 yards. The two open circle shots high in the 7 ring were the sighters. It was even more difficult to deal with the wind, constant changes in the rear sight windage. Poor elevation control in my part, I find the 44 inch black aiming mark very difficult to see at 1000x thru iron sights. Elevation spread was at 2.4 MOA, but I did manage to put four shots into the 1 MOA X ring. Note the standard deviation at 6.8 fps, bit higher than the 800 yd target, but still good. The average velocity at 1000x was 1237 fps, so I can reduce the charge by 1/2 grain and still get the 1200 fps minimum to work the electronic targets. ![]() Next, the “super match” load, at 800 yards, elevation spread just over 2 MOA. 12 shots here, includes the two sighters which were 10’s. Note, the standard deviation of the super match load is higher than the regular match load, more than double than the regular match load at 800x. I believe the shot in the 9 ring at 4 O’Clock was on me. Discounting that, the vertical spread was at 1.5 MOA. ![]() The same 800 yard target zoomed in, showed two more shots just outside the X ring, so no question that the rifle and ammo does perform, and those two 9’s are on me. ![]() Last, 1000 yards with the super match load. I didn’t take a photo of the target, was not impressive at all. Only 1 shot of the 12 fired hit the 10 ring, most were 8’s. I suspect it was me, I was fairly tired at that point and loosing concentration. I had fired a few groups of DA 1962 service ammunition in between these two loads at 100 yards which I’ll report on separately. It’s possible that might have affected the results here with the super match loads. This was all shot slung up prone, PH 5C aperture sight and “Matchmaker” front sight. This again showed me that cases neck sized in the Lee Collet Die produce very accurate ammunition. They gave lower standard deviations and reduced group spread. This is not the general consensus of precision shooters with match and Benchrest rifles, they full length size, the theory being a full length sized case will allow the bullet to self align in the bore better than a neck sized case. The additional steps taken for the super match ammunition (partial length sizing cases to uniform headspace, weighing cases and selecting those within +/- 0.1 grains, deburring flash holes and primer pocket depth uniforming) did not show any improvement over my regular match loads. |
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