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7.62 Lee Enfield Envoy

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    Posted: April 19 2022 at 5:45pm
i was just posting to that other 1911 thread , i know this is a tangent but ....yes , never go to a gunfight with fairness in mind , go to win , the 1911 is my go to , i prefer the full size but carry a compact , as we age carrying all that weight is cumbersome but i prefer that action over anything else , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2022 at 6:44am
UK "Civilian" Service Rifle tend to follow the same rules as service rifle as shot by the armed forces over here and your side of the pond as well, (there may be small changes for either side) certainly max mag power of 4.5x is the same except in Practical Optic class where most things are allowed.

The majority of service rifle shooters over here tend to use AR15's, albeit the straight pull variety to comply with UK law and and we have no restrictions on magazine capacity; a friend with a neck problem uses a 40 rd mag when mag resting to help ease the pressure on his neck and spine. 

All matches are shot on standard issue figure targets, Fig 11, Fig 12 etc even though there was a movement at one time to get figure targets banned for civilian use; cadets still use a swirly pattern target which at 100 yards looks identical to the normal figure target! You have to ask yourself why? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2022 at 6:26am
Here in the US, the modern Service Rifle matches allow for considerable improvements to the basic rifle.  Heavier barrels, up to 4.5x scopes, weighted stocks, extended bolt release levers, etc.  It’s the “Games” rifle matches (M1, 1903 Springfield and “foreign” military bolt action rifles) that have fairly strict rules for being “as issued”.  And for obvious reasons.  Some minor mods are allowed, a reduced size aperture, 1903 type sling, new replacement barrels of original contour, maybe a few other things. 

An Envoy could be used in F-Class competition in several categories, but not in a Service Rifle match.

I’d really like to use my DCRA 7.62 in the Vintage Military Matches, but it is a non-standard calibre, the barrel is bedded at a non-standard location in the fore-end (at the sling swivel band).  It wouldn’t be usable anyway in the rapid fire stage without a reliable means of spent case ejection (I’m using a 2A1 magazine).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2022 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

Unfortunately the L39 is not currently allowed in the French service rifle modified class, but you could use a No4 in .308!

About 18 years ago I did use an L39 in the NRA (UK) Civilian Service Rifle competitions under "Any Irons", I simply fitted the Mk1 micrometer leaf sight from a No.5 I had spare and tried to remember the number of clicks difference for the various distances on the sight...sometimes forgetting what I should put on! 
My overall impression was that it was ok for most things prone but for the standing & kneeling disciplines it really wasn't "pointy" enough and the barrel weight was against me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2022 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

Unfortunately the L39 is not currently allowed in the French service rifle modified class, but you could use a No4 in .308!
This reminds me if a quote Zed:

You may have to read,"In Between the Lines" to understand why I no longer compete in in such frivolous shooting activities but, Mr. Cooper drives my point home i believe...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2022 at 11:01am
Better that than "One of Those"!Shocked
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2022 at 10:59am
Unfortunately the L39 is not currently allowed in the French service rifle modified class, but you could use a No4 in .308!
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2022 at 4:40am
Can’t fool me Sham, I know your “one of us” Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2022 at 1:54am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

You won't find that kind of stuff here.
We even discuss sporters!
Well sometimes, at least.Shocked

LOL 

One regret I have when we formed the Lee Enfield Rifle Association was that there was no appetite for a "sporting" section given how cheap .303 sporting rifles were, (and still are!) and that we have a running boar range at Bisley to use them on.
Talk about missed opportunities! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2022 at 5:46pm
You won't find that kind of stuff here.
We even discuss sporters!
Well sometimes, at least.Shocked
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2022 at 4:22pm
Geoff it's refreshing to find a forum that tolerates talk about military rifles that have been converted for target use, even though this practice has been going on for well over a hundred years or more some people still think its sacrilege! 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2022 at 4:11pm
Sorry, I must apologize, I meant no disrespect to other members when I said it was so refreshing to have another “shooter on our forum”.  What I should have said was I was pleased to have another “competitive rifle shooter” on the forum.  

The majority of our members do indeed shoot their rifles, using them for hunting, occasional target shooting practice, shooting casually off the bench, etc.  But only a few of us, to my knowledge, have in the past, or currently, enter shooting competitions with our beloved Lee Enfield Rifles.  There are a few who are avid collectors, and they possess unique detail knowledge of the Lee Enfield that is of particular value. 

I for one really enjoy the sport of Service Rifle shooting.  Especially shooting in the “Vintage Military Rifle” matches.  Which is why I started the thread on the “Enfield-Rifles Virtual Match”. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2022 at 3:54pm
Mick, your speaking my language now. Very refreshing to have another shooter on our forum.  

For comparison, the US NRA High Power Rifle Long Range Target (used in modern Service Rifle Matches at 800, 900 and 1000 yds) has a 10 inch X Ring, 20 inch 10 ring and 30 inch 9 ring, etc.  so a bit smaller sized rings than the UK NRA TR Long Range target.  Sometime in the next few weeks, I plan to shoot my DCRA No. 4 Conversion (circa 1966) out to 1000 yards on this target to see how it does.  I’m curious if me and my handloads can better the 1967 Palma Match results. 

As to my Fulton Regulated Long Branch No. 4, in .303, I’ve concluded it is perhaps a 1 to 1.5 MOA rifle for 95% of shots fired off a bench with a scope.   My own prone slow fire shooting in matches with the service Mk 1 rear sight will sometimes hold ten consecutive shots to just over 1.5 MOA, but more typically within 2 MOA.  My DCRA 7.62 Conversion, barrel bedding at the middle band, is slightly better, mind you, it has less than 1000 rounds thru the barrel.  

Geoff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2022 at 11:14am
Geoff, looking at one of my "better" plot sheets on a two sighter's and ten to count shoot and then removing three "flyers" I have come to the conclusion the barrel is capable of 1 MoA. (not necessary by me though!) Smile

My own shooting is not what it was due to two spinal operations since 2012 which have robbed me of some upper body strength, I can no longer do service rifle either because kneeling (replacement knee) & sitting are out of the question. 
Having now told the world it's a wonder I'm still alive lets talk about targets! 

Targets for historic shooting are close to my heart and the NRA (UK) introduced new historic targets in 2016. 
It annoyed me somewhat that these targets were introduced and no thought put into the bigger question regarding plot sheets for them; luckily I knew the contact details for two Bisley shooters who produce plot sheets and they both kindly supplied plot sheets on their websites to cater for the new targets. 
The targets are known as NRA/HBSA (Historical Breechloading Small Arms Association) and are available in round bull or tin hat configuration, the scoring rings are of the size used in the early 1970's so very much at the end of the SR"b" era and just in what we now refer to as the Transitional classification of rifle, i.e. First generation target rifle built on 1946 ~ 1960 design 7.62mmx51 NATO.

One issue with the new targets is that some historic shooters don't like them citing that the aiming point is rather small being the same width as the foresight blade on an Enfield. I tend to agree that a larger aiming point would be easier but that's just an age thing, most of the whingers are my age or older, read into that what you will! 

For long range, (800~900~1000) there is only the current NRA TR target which is V bull = 14.4" Bull = 24" Inner 48" (also the aiming point) Magpie 72" and finally the outer which is a massive 96". 
It's interesting to see how the scoring rings have shrunk over the years as better ammunition has been introduced, GGG being the current favourite until a couple of years ago when it started to break the extractors on certain rifles, (Paramount's spring to mind) the cause of which was tracked down to excessive primers...all of the TR shooters over here are on tenterhooks wondering what this years issue of ammunition for the Imperial meeting will be like. 

Mick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2022 at 10:18am
Mick, I would like to hear how well your LB No. 4 with Criterion barrel shoots.  I have a new Criterion and Lothar Walther barrel on hand I will use one of these once the BSA barrel is shot out, which I suspect is on the verge of doing so.  It typically seems to show up at longer ranges first.  

I was looking over the results of the 1967 Palma Matches which were shot at Connaught ranges west of Ottawa.  No. 4 7.62 Conversions were used, with Long Branch made and installed barrels of service weight and rifles prepped by Canadian armorers, fore-ends “Center” bedded.  Canadian Service 7.62 ball ammunition made by CIL was used, which performed quite well, and would have been from a selected lot based on accuracy testing.  A 147 gr boat tail bullet loaded to 2800 fps from the 25 inch barrel. 

The total scores from the three 20 shooter teams (Canada, GB and USA) were remarkably close, only 11 points separating the first and last place teams (from a “possible score of 4,500 points). These were fired on Bisley Long Range targets in use at that time: a 30 inch Bull (Bull score was a 5), Inner ring was 54 inches for a score of 4, Magpie 84 inches for a score of 3.  

The average of the 45 shots taken from all shooters from the three ranges (800, 900 and 1000 yds) was 4.6, which is quite good considering the size of the bull (3 Minutes) service weight barrels and service ammunition.  And this was in 15 to 20 mph cross winds (range faces North and prevailing winds out of the west). 

Having these match results published is very useful, it gives us a standard to judge our own shooting to. 

Geoff





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2022 at 6:53am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Fulton’s we’re no doubt a first class rifle builder.  I have a No. 4 Long Branch that they built (Regulated for SR(b) shooting) in the early 1960’s.  They installed a new BSA 5 groove barrel and that rifle still shoots incredibly good after more than 10,000 rounds.  This rifle was ordered by a shooting competitor friend of my Dads who was on the DCRA team to Bisley for the 1963 meeting but it wasn’t ready on time.  He brought it back with him and never fired the rifle.

When I retired in 2016 one of the first things I did with my pension pot was to get Fultons to build me a .303 No.4 SR"b". 
I specified a Long Branch action because my mothers sister had married a Canadian during the war and one of her offspring now lives in long Branch! Aside from that the finish is infinitely better than the majority of UK No.4 wartime actions.
Most of the furniture was new apart from the bottom fore end and the barrel is a Criterion made one; it is without doubt my rifle of choice these days, I would however like a DCRA pattern 7.62mm to go with it!        
Mick
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