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Need Help identification on this Bayonet

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Sarge View Drop Down
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    Posted: December 06 2022 at 12:03pm
'terrylee'...

Righto! I presume your referring to the P13 with full U.S. Arsenal markings.... the last item I illustrate. The ( HELP! ) indicator after the 3rd item on your list gave some idea of what you were after. I merely placed that portion into context. As I've shown + explained... it's not out-of-place, although I can fully see how you see it that way. Look at it as a natural progression.... the final step inline... from P13 to M17.
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote terrylee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2022 at 10:38am
Sarge, I don't think you understood the purpose of my post.  I was merely referring to the markings of the bayonets in question! I find the one with an original US crest plus the 13 rather out of place! 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2022 at 8:07am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

i hope i didnt overstate , but just for S&G the Pattern 1913 and Model 1917 bayonets will interchange between the P1914 rifle and M1917 rifle ....just not the no1 mkIII-III* that required the P1907 blades  [that was the design for the P13 and M17 bayonets]  hope that helps more , 

the US continued the cross cuts as the canadians and others were using both P14 & M17 rifles 

'A square 10'

I think this is what you were trying to say. Thumbs Up





This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2022 at 7:42am
'terrylee'...

I don't think your fully aware of the various steps during the progression from P13 to M17, and as such,,, are getting yourself a tad confused with what you refer to as the--> American P13. 

Let me take you through the full progression. Listed below are the various stages from P13 to M17 ( mistamp )...
1) Enfield Trials Pattern-1913 bayonet ( two production dates ).
2) Pattern-1913.
3) Vickers Production Pattern-1913.
4) Early production Model-1917.
5) Cancelled British inspector stampings ( two methods = Cross-Hatched & Peening ).
6) Fully U.S. Arsenal stamped Pattern=1913.
7) Standard production Model-1917 ( with Clearence Hole in pommel ). 
8) Standard production Model-1917 ( mistamped as 1918 ).

Let's look at items 5) & 6) from the listing above. Hopefully, aster reading this, all will be clearer, and the pieces will fall into place.

Cancelled British Inspector Stamps - Cross-Hatching.



When America entered WW1 in April of 1917, it soon became apparent that there was a desperate shortage of rifles and bayonets. The cancelled British P14 Rifle and P13 Bayonet contracts left the USA with approx 250,000 Bayonets waiting for a new home. The P13 Bayonets, after purchase from The UK, were added to the U.S. Arsenal by cancelling out the British Inspector Stamps, then adding the letters U.S. ( as illustrated above ). There was also a second method employed which achieved the same aim = Peening.

Cancelled British Inspector Stamps - Peening.



Peening served the same purpose as Cross-hatching. Along with the added 'U.S.', it served to show that the item thus stamped was fully a U.S. Military item.

British Pattern-1913 - Full U.S, Arsenal Stamped.

In order to show American ownership of P13 examples which had not Been through the Bristish Inspection System... another method was needed. The method used, was the same as used on standard production Model-1917 bayonets.



*NOTE*

The methods illustrated / described above, apply only to Remington produced examples.


This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote terrylee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2022 at 1:21am
An interesting progression in the P13/M17 bayonet markings:
1) British, P13
2) British cancelled, US, P13
3) American, P13    (Help!)
4) American, M17

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2022 at 6:33pm
its one of the areas i spent a lot of time on , i owned a lot of the rifles both P14 and M17 at one time , way more than i had when i came here [near 30] as well as the bayonets , i had sold most off keeping only the few ive posted here because they spoke to me , ill not pretend to be an expert but i did know a lot of these and only share what i know to be true as there is a lot about these out there that is net falsehoods , like the three american companies sharing parts - totally false - they each had contracts to fill for both the brits and the US and some problems existed , mostly for winchester , 

but i digress , the P13 is the topic and only the two made these , after the P13 rifle was abandoned the brit contracts to their domestic bayo mfgrs fell away in preference to the commonwealth production demands for the P07 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2022 at 6:11pm
That's good to know. Its outside my field of expertise though.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2022 at 5:54pm
i hope i didnt overstate , but just for S&G the Pattern 1913 and Model 1917 bayonets will interchange between the P1914 rifle and M1917 rifle ....just not the no1 mkIII-III* that required the P1907 blades  [that was the design for the P13 and M17 bayonets]  hope that helps more , 

the US continued the cross cuts as the canadians and others were using both P14 & M17 rifles 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2022 at 5:34pm
Oh I am slipping.
I know it
I dislike it.
But I am not the person I used to be.
Please feel free to correct if needed, I promise I wont get mad if it's legit.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2022 at 5:26pm
just so we dont mislead here - 

the american companies remington and winchester produced the pattern 1913 bayonets for the P1914 rifles first for contracts for the commonwealth , then later when those were done the remarked some to M1917 for their american contracts for the M1917 rifles , 

yes there were a few that were marked 1918 by accident as per common US practice for the M1905 but this was corrected , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2022 at 6:58am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

The version of the bayonet made to fit the Pattern 14 Rifle, not the rifle itself, nor the U.S. M1917.

Appreciate you clarifying that 'Shamu'. I thought you might be slipping there for a second.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2022 at 12:15pm
The version of the bayonet made to fit the Pattern 14 Rifle, not the rifle itself, nor the U.S. M1917.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2022 at 1:19am
'Shamu'.... Are you referring to the rifle or bayonet in this instance??? 'P14' = The rifle. The bayonet you illustrate is a 'P13'. The Americans had two versions of the same bayonet... the Model 1917 ( M17 ), and the Model 1917 - mistamped as 1918. many American's refer to the P14 as the non-existent 'P17'.
This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2022 at 1:12am
Goodday gentlmen..

The '07' i  question in the original post, was manufactured by - Wilkinson Pall Mall. The 'pall mall' section... ( always underneath the 'Wilkinson' ) is very sparsely stamped, though still discernable. 

Sarge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2022 at 3:09pm
"Bristol Grammar School" also used "BGS" on a bunch of stuff, & they had a CCF, what, if anything it was marked I have no Idea though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2022 at 3:13am
The BDS stamp on the pommel has me stumped! 

BD usually signifies the county of Bedfordshire and BGS stands for Bedford Grammar School. 
BDS is not listed in Skennerton's The Broad Arrow so my best guess is that it might be a miss stamp for Bedfordshire Grammar School or possibly a stamp for just Bedfordshire School. 
Having said that Skennerton's book has many missing stamps which have surfaced since it's publication(s). 
Mick
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