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No. 1 Mk III front sight problem

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AussieInUtah View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 10 2012 at 1:16pm
I'm trying to get my No. 1 Mk III (Ishapore 1953) to shoot to point of aim.  It's not working.

Using a load (41.8 gr Varget) that produces a muzzle velocity of 2480 fps with a 174 gr SMK bullet, I am shooting prone from a rest and hitting the target 2 inches low at 25 yards when the rear sight is set at 200 yards.

So I should be using a lower front sight blade to bring the point of impact up.  The problem is that the front sight blade on the rifle is stamped "0" and mics at 0.317" - i.e. it is the smallest one available for the No. 1 Mk III.Ouch

So using a blade four increments smaller is not an option.

What do people do in this instance?  File down the front sight blade?  Hold over?  Make a new set of calibrations for the rear sight?

This is really frustrating.Angry  I thought that I'd be able to get this rifle to shoot to point of aim if I developed a load to replicate the milspec 2440 fps/174 gr ammunition, but that isn't happening.
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Alan de Enfield View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan de Enfield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 3:57pm
The lowest blade size for the No1 Mk3 is a 'minus' -0.06 so if you currently have a 0 then you have another 4 sizes reduction to go at :
 
-0.015
-0.030
-0.045
-0.060
 
Each change of blade size will give you a POI change of 0.69" at 25 yards
 
I have a Pdf of "Technical Training School REME - Zeroing Of Rifles" document that covers the No1, No3, No4 & No5 rifles. - if you PM me your email I'll forward a copy to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muffett.2008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2012 at 4:34pm

The point of aim for Lee Enfields is a centre aim. If you are balancing than you are holding too low, all original aiming marks for target work were the half black/half white, lower half being white.

 You just poked your blade up to the black and squeezed off.
 The other point of course is that you will never be able to duplicate the specs of the original load, the burning characteristics of cordite have no safe comparison in modern powders, except the fact that if you can duplicate the muzzle velocity, your sights will be close out to 200, high at 3 and 400 and nowhere near out to 1000.
  Modern powders with their more even burn rates will shoot flatter for the first 5-600 yds.
 You may be wise to fit a target sight and forget the range scale, use the vernier scale instead.
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AussieInUtah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AussieInUtah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 12:06am
Originally posted by Alan de Enfield Alan de Enfield wrote:

The lowest blade size for the No1 Mk3 is a 'minus' -0.06 so if you currently have a 0 then you have another 4 sizes reduction to go at :
 
-0.015
-0.030
-0.045
-0.060
 
Each change of blade size will give you a POI change of 0.69" at 25 yards
 
I have a Pdf of "Technical Training School REME - Zeroing Of Rifles" document that covers the No1, No3, No4 & No5 rifles. - if you PM me your email I'll forward a copy to you.

Thanks, Alan.  I'm confused now.  I've been working from Stephen Redgwell's book 'Shooting & Reloading the 303 British and the 303 Epps', wherein he says (p90):

"The No 1 Mk III rifle has 5 different sizes stamped 0, 015, 03, 045 or 06.  Like the No 4, each blade is 0.15 of an inch taller than the last and the total height is measured in the same way.  Adjustments should be made as described earlier."

So are you saying that, in addition to the +015, +03, +045 and +06 blades that Redgwell describes above there is also a set of -015, -03, -045 and -06 blades?

To add to the confusion, Redgwell recommends using a 6 o'clock hold on a 1" x 1.5" rectangle for sighting in at 25 yards to give a dead-on hit on a 6 inch target at 100 yards.  So I'm holding on the bottom of the rectangle with the intention of putting my shots into the middle, but instead hitting 2 inches below the middle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan de Enfield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 1:20am
I've had several requests for the zeroing document so I'll try to print out and scan each page and save them individually as a Tif (or whatever that allows me to post it on the forum) and post them here.
 
Give me a couple of days.
 
Or - does anyone know how to get a Pdf posted onto the forum ?
 
 
Just to repeat what Muffet says :
The English way is to aim at the centre of the bull (the USA way seems to be to rest the bull on top of the foresight - 6 O'clock) This is why the UK targets have half black / half white 'bulls' (like a hat) so you can 'sit' the black line on the foresight
 
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 2:49am
Alan, you can send the PDF file to me and I'll see about getting it posted.

Eric
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AussieInUtah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 5:04am
Does anyone know a source for the front sight blades?  I ordered a set from Springfield Sporters but they sent me five blades that includes two pairs of the same height.  Not very useful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan de Enfield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 5:21am
Originally posted by AussieInUtah AussieInUtah wrote:


So are you saying that, in addition to the +015, +03, +045 and +06 blades that Redgwell describes above there is also a set of -015, -03, -045 and -06 blades?

Yes !!
 
Originally there were 7 sizes available (and that is what my 'Zeroing Document' will show when we eventually get it posted) - these were :
 
-0.060
-0.045
-0.030
-0.015
-0.000
+0.015
+0.030
(Although they are not marked with the + sign. No + sign means it is a 'plus')
 
Later additional "+" sizes were added to give
 
+0.045
+0.060
 
There is some question as to these being 'Military' or 'Civilian' (maybe Parker Hale) additions.
You will often see sight blade sets of 8 or 9 pieces on ebay - well worth getting if you do see them.
You never know how your next Enfield will shoot and as its getting more and more difficult to get MkVII ammunition we need to 'tune' our sights to what ammunition we can get.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 5:33am
document for zeroing an Enfield has been added to Alan's last post.

Eric
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan de Enfield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 5:38am
Thanks Eric
 
Hopes the info helps those that need it
 
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AussieInUtah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 6:21am
Originally posted by Alan de Enfield Alan de Enfield wrote:

Originally posted by AussieInUtah AussieInUtah wrote:


So are you saying that, in addition to the +015, +03, +045 and +06 blades that Redgwell describes above there is also a set of -015, -03, -045 and -06 blades?

Yes !!
 
Originally there were 7 sizes available (and that is what my 'Zeroing Document' will show when we eventually get it posted) - these were :
 
-0.060
-0.045
-0.030
-0.015
-0.000
+0.015
+0.030
(Although they are not marked with the + sign. No + sign means it is a 'plus')
 
Later additional "+" sizes were added to give
 
+0.045
+0.060
 
There is some question as to these being 'Military' or 'Civilian' (maybe Parker Hale) additions.
You will often see sight blade sets of 8 or 9 pieces on ebay - well worth getting if you do see them.
You never know how your next Enfield will shoot and as its getting more and more difficult to get MkVII ammunition we need to 'tune' our sights to what ammunition we can get.
 

Thanks, Alan.  Just looked on Ebay.  Not much of a selection.  There's a -.015 blade there now, but I think that I need a -0.060 to move the POI up by 2 inches.  Of course, if I use a centre hold instead of 6 o'clock I can probably use a -0.030 blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AussieInUtah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 7:26am
Dang it!  Just located a -.045 blade in the collection, but I can't get it into the dovetail slot.  Any hints?  Should I file it to fit?  (I'm no gunsmith, so I don't feel comfortable removing metal...)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxwell smart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 11:11am
It may not fit because it MIGHT be a sight element for a No 4 rifle rather than a No 1. The dovetails are a different size, but the discrepancy is easy to spot when you offer the sight element up to the foresight block, or indeed to the element which is already in place - the difference is obvious to the naked eye.
 
What is the shape of the blade viewed from the side? ÍIRC, the No 1 blade stops short of the rear of the block, and is vertical at the rear.
 
If the dovetail looks to be a close match, such that you think it is a No 1 sight element, then you could file a very small chamfer on ONE side of the dovetail. and insert that side into the dovetail on the foresight block. This should allow you to start the element to slide in. 
 
Be careful not to file too much off, the element is held in place by friction alone.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AussieInUtah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 11:41am
Originally posted by maxwell smart maxwell smart wrote:

It may not fit because it MIGHT be a sight element for a No 4 rifle rather than a No 1. The dovetails are a different size, but the discrepancy is easy to spot when you offer the sight element up to the foresight block, or indeed to the element which is already in place - the difference is obvious to the naked eye.
 
What is the shape of the blade viewed from the side? ÍIRC, the No 1 blade stops short of the rear of the block, and is vertical at the rear.
 
If the dovetail looks to be a close match, such that you think it is a No 1 sight element, then you could file a very small chamfer on ONE side of the dovetail. and insert that side into the dovetail on the foresight block. This should allow you to start the element to slide in. 
 
Be careful not to file too much off, the element is held in place by friction alone.
 
 

Here's a picture of the existing blade (left) and the -.045 blade that won't fit (right).  I can't see a significant difference in shape (apart from height).  So I think that I've got the right blade, but it just won't fit.

existing "0" blade (left) and new "-.045" blade (right)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 10:08pm
You might also put the new front sight blade in the freezer overnight before fitting it. the cold will very slightly reduce dimensions as the sight metal cools & contracts.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White Rhino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2012 at 10:42pm
Shamu , I have used that trick before ...worked very well ....
I have also wanted to try the stuff for freezing warts that they have on the market now and see if it will do the job !!
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