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Were Enfield bayos ever this odd?

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    Posted: January 15 2010 at 6:33am
Or did "Bubba" help?
 
"Bubba" is an interesting charecter & has come up with some interesting "TFMs" but this may be a winner.
 
I don't have a picture & I'm not a collector, so I'm not a big (or small, even) expert in bayonets, so please excuse me if my terminology is "off".
 
Was there ever, anywhere, a version of a Lee-Enfield bayonet that was made by cutting the pointy end of a spike bayonet off, & welding (or brazing) the stub to the back of the handle of a #1 type batonet's handle tang?
 
I ask because I've been offered locally this "Rare! Unique!" Enfield bayonet.Ouch
 
It looks like a handled bayonet, with a #4 type stub attached to the back of it.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2010 at 9:40am
Thats either a wind up or a classic attempt at fraud! If any more turn up you'll probably find some old guy in a shed at the bottom of his garden with a Mig welder. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2010 at 12:27am
That's kind of what I figgured.
My one preference for the No1 rifles would be that they take a bayonet you can actually use to open a can of corned beef with.Beer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2010 at 5:23am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Or did "Bubba" help?
 
"Bubba" is an interesting charecter & has come up with some interesting "TFMs" but this may be a winner.
 
I don't have a picture & I'm not a collector, so I'm not a big (or small, even) expert in bayonets, so please excuse me if my terminology is "off".
 
Was there ever, anywhere, a version of a Lee-Enfield bayonet that was made by cutting the pointy end of a spike bayonet off, & welding (or brazing) the stub to the back of the handle of a #1 type batonet's handle tang?
 
I ask because I've been offered locally this "Rare! Unique!" Enfield bayonet.Ouch
 
It looks like a handled bayonet, with a #4 type stub attached to the back of it.
I've seen bayonets modified in just this manner recently used in a documentary on a WW1 battle.
They used a mix of No.1 rifles for close ups and No.4 rifles fitted with the 1907 style bayonets for troops in the back ground.
Also in any close ups where troops were supposedly firing only the rear portion of the modified No.4 rifles were seen.
I suspect that most if not all the No.1 rifles used in the film were either cast resin dummy rifles or welded up de activated rifles. They used the No.4 rifles for firing close ups because the actions of those still cycled.
They were just dry firing from the look of it, muzzle blasts being added with CGI.
 
Check for any markings that would indicate a film prop warehouse. Motion picture props often get sold off or ripped off, and can bring a good price if they bear markings or have accompanying letters for provenance. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2010 at 10:59pm
before you dismiss this out-of-hand , please note that there were such a thing ,
 
it was  an experimental bayonet , it was developed in the late 30s , it was intended for the '.276 special [sniper] rifle' , the first of these proposed designs was a cruciform style #B263 [25.1.1939]with a 16+" spike , a later version with a P07 style #B264 blade went thru four types "A"-"D" , they differ in that the first two were weld-ons the second two were screw fastened , reuseing existing P07 blades , and they had varrying offsets of the blade from the bore axis ,
 
the type "A" was set at same offset dimension as the accepted no4 mkI to the no4 rifle , type "B" was set to the offset of the P07 to the no1 rifle , the type "C" was the offset of the no4 with three screws fastening a salvaged P07 blade and the type "D" used four screws and a tiny bit more offset , all were 16+" blades ,
 
there are questions as to wether all of these were actually produced or if some were only concept drawings , but some of at least a couple were , and obviously the first , in a shortened version becam the no4 bayonet , the blades would have taken more resources at a time when there were too few available to meet even the minimal demands , thus ..............
these were abandoned at outbreak of the war for simpler and shorter spike versions due to production constraints ,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 1:05am
So this might be a real item then?
Hmmmm.
I'm guessing if it is real it'd be a type "B" if I'm reading this correctly. Blade bayonet, not spike & offset more than normal (almost double in fact, a #4 + a #1 offset) and welded/brazed in place. Could this be a real reare collectable maybe?
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 4:41am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

 
Was there ever, anywhere, a version of a Lee-Enfield bayonet that was made by cutting the pointy end of a spike bayonet off, & welding (or brazing) the stub to the back of the handle of a #1 type batonet's handle tang?
 
I ask because I've been offered locally this "Rare! Unique!" Enfield bayonet.Ouch
 
It looks like a handled bayonet, with a #4 type stub attached to the back of it.
This if I read you right is exactly what the film prop bayonets looked like.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

before you dismiss this out-of-hand , please note that there were such a thing ,
 
it was  an experimental bayonet , it was developed in the late 30s , it was intended for the '.276 special [sniper] rifle' , the first of these proposed designs was a cruciform style #B263 [25.1.1939]with a 16+" spike , a later version with a P07 style #B264 blade went thru four types "A"-"D" , they differ in that the first two were weld-ons the second two were screw fastened , reuseing existing P07 blades , and they had varrying offsets of the blade from the bore axis ,
 
the type "A" was set at same offset dimension as the accepted no4 mkI to the no4 rifle , type "B" was set to the offset of the P07 to the no1 rifle , the type "C" was the offset of the no4 with three screws fastening a salvaged P07 blade and the type "D" used four screws and a tiny bit more offset , all were 16+" blades ,
 
there are questions as to wether all of these were actually produced or if some were only concept drawings , but some of at least a couple were , and obviously the first , in a shortened version becam the no4 bayonet , the blades would have taken more resources at a time when there were too few available to meet even the minimal demands , thus ..............
these were abandoned at outbreak of the war for simpler and shorter spike versions due to production constraints ,
I don't think these are what Shamu has described.
I've seen No.4 Bayonets with a short blade rather than a spike, but these had no handle.
 
The Film prop bayonets looked to be a 1907 Bayonet fitted to a No.4 socket, the ring fitted over the cut off stub of the No.4 spike. The upper band and its screw may have also been used in some manner to secure the handle.
 
I'd wondered whether this was some third world modification to use available old stock P1907 bayonets, but the lash up is obviosly too flimsey to hold up in battle.
The purpose these were used for in the film was solely to give the impression that troops coming out of the trenches in the background were armed with the same model of rifle as the troops in the foreground.
 
With insurance costs of filming a battle scene and the high cost of rentals, as much as $400 a day for SMGs I'm told, prop providers use whatever is on hand, and don't wish to use rifles that haven't been deactivated. Finding hundreds of otherwise good condition WW1 era, or Lithgow WW2 era rifles might not have been easy, so available No.4 rifles fitted with the altered bayonets was a viable solution.
 
Its been awhile since I saw this film, but its likely to be shown again in the near future.
I think it was on the Discovery Channel in their "Battlefield Detectives" series. Probably dealing with the Somme.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 5:05am
Anyone have a pic, I don't.
Unfortunately it's not mine so I can't just grab it & take pics, unless I buy it first.
Markings? Yeah but again they are on the bayo & I don't have it handy.
 
The blade seemed to be the same (or at least really similar) in length to a regular Enfield bayonet for a #4, but they had a handle like a bayonet for a #1. The "stub" of what looked like a standard #4 spike bayonet went 60~70% of the length of the handle's tang.
 
The blade was a different shape from most #4 bayonets I've seen, but the length did not seem different from memory. The blade was "bowie-shaped" for lack of a better term.
 
I don't know if this helps any but there was a ring at the front of the handle, quite large IIRC. I assume the bullets would just pass thru the hole without contacting the rimConfused. This ring would be 3~4" in front of the muzzle if the bayonet was attached to a #4, really odd Geek
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 5:11am
i did not clearly read it to include the grip after modification , if it does then you would be correct , it was most likely a prop or third world inovation of some sort ,
 
if the grip and crossguard are gone , the finished item would closely resemble a no9 - only with the P07 blade rater than the no5 blade [BTW there was a version of these with a M16 type blade as well] this would be what the experimental uniots looked like , long blade with a no4 socket no grip ,
 
it would be a rare one indeed tho as im not sure how many of the experimentals were made nor if any survived ,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 6:04am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Anyone have a pic, I don't.
Unfortunately it's not mine so I can't just grab it & take pics, unless I buy it first.
Markings? Yeah but again they are on the bayo & I don't have it handy.
 
The blade seemed to be the same (or at least really similar) in length to a regular Enfield bayonet for a #4, but they had a handle like a bayonet for a #1. The "stub" of what looked like a standard #4 spike bayonet went 60~70% of the length of the handle's tang.
 
The blade was a different shape from most #4 bayonets I've seen, but the length did not seem different from memory. The blade was "bowie-shaped" for lack of a better term.
 
I don't know if this helps any but there was a ring at the front of the handle, quite large IIRC. I assume the bullets would just pass thru the hole without contacting the rimConfused. This ring would be 3~4" in front of the muzzle if the bayonet was attached to a #4, really odd Geek
 
Well from your more complete description it does not sound like the prop bayonets used in the flim. Those were full length P07 blades with handles intact.
The Bowie bladed No.4 bayonets i have seen had no handle other than the socket fixture, useless for holding the blade as you would a fighting knife.
 
This may not have been meant for use on a rifle at all, or at least not on an Enfield, but rather a lashup to allow fitting a bayonet to another type of weapon entirely.
 
It could be some sort of experimental blade but nothing I've heard of before.
 
 
PS
This might be it, the No.7 bayonet for the STEN gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 8:32am
This may not have been meant for use on a rifle at all, or at least not on an Enfield, but rather a lashup to allow fitting a bayonet to another type of weapon entirely.
 
Actually the only thing I can think this would have been made for would be to fit on an enfield #4 with it's fitting round the barrel. Otherwise why bodge up a perfectly functional bayonet for a #1 rifle by welding the butt end of a bayonet for a #4 to it?
It certainly doesn't help when using the bayonet for anything else.
 
The link is darn close to what I sawClap Imagine that socket, minus the ability to rotate, attached by welding to the back of a handle & you've got it!
 
Could it be some oddball sten bayonet?Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 8:52am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

This may not have been meant for use on a rifle at all, or at least not on an Enfield, but rather a lashup to allow fitting a bayonet to another type of weapon entirely.
 
Actually the only thing I can think this would have been made for would be to fit on an enfield #4 with it's fitting round the barrel. Otherwise why bodge up a perfectly functional bayonet for a #1 rifle by welding the butt end of a bayonet for a #4 to it?
It certainly doesn't help when using the bayonet for anything else.
 
The link is darn close to what I sawClap Imagine that socket, minus the ability to rotate, attached by welding to the back of a handle & you've got it!
 
Could it be some oddball sten bayonet?Confused
Could be an earlier version of the No.7 bayonet, without the refinement that allows rotation of the spike when sheathed, or possibly a third world attempt to copy the design for use on STEN Guns and No.4 rifles in their inventory.
 
Another article on this type bayonet said that it had been discontinued after an accident caused by a bullet striking the ring. It was then relegated to use in ceremony or parade.
Could be that accident was due to the ring not being rotated fully out of the way and latched.
 
Either way it seems to be a cumbersome bayonet, and not very efficient if used on a rifle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 1:24pm
"...........
Actually the only thing I can think this would have been made for would be to fit on an enfield #4 with it's fitting round the barrel. Otherwise why bodge up a perfectly functional bayonet for a #1 rifle by welding the butt end of a bayonet for a #4 to it?
It certainly doesn't help when using the bayonet for anything else.
 
The link is darn close to what I sawClap Imagine that socket, minus the ability to rotate, attached by welding to the back of a handle & you've got it!
 
Could it be some oddball sten bayonet?Confused
........."
 
NOPE - i think it was the prop that was discussed , if it looks at all like a no7 bayo then the 'handle" is still there and its not the experimental that looked like a no9 ,
 
sorry - i keep wanting some common person to find a really rare bit , something that the 'real collectors' have not found yet , but then ive considered attacking a windmill or pi$$ing up a rope recently as well ...........guess im getting old
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

"...........
 
NOPE - i think it was the prop that was discussed , if it looks at all like a no7 bayo then the 'handle" is still there and its not the experimental that looked like a no9 ,
 
sorry - i keep wanting some common person to find a really rare bit , something that the 'real collectors' have not found yet , but then ive considered attacking a windmill or pi$$ing up a rope recently as well ...........guess im getting old
If the socket is at the rear of the handle rather than at the ring it couldn't be the prop bayonet I saw in the film. Those had the ring of a full length 1907 afixed to the cut off stub of a spike blade and the bayonet fitted to the muzzle with the handle laying along the underside of the fore end's noze caps with the upper band coming in close contact with the handle, the screw of the upper band probably somehow arranged to brace the lash up.
These were used only to give a No.4 rifle the same appearance as a SMLE when seen at a distance in the background.
 
The welded up No.7 clone may also be a film prop for that matter, but I suspect it was cobbled together to take the place of the No.7 bayonet for other reasons, possibly for training since the original No.7 was very likely prone to wear or damage.
Sort of like the German "Ersatz bayonet".
 
Thinking on it I may have seen a No.7 bayonet at the surplus store I mentioned on another thread, they'd sold out of the P1907 bayonets but had a few bayonets in a glass case of types I'd never seen and didn't recognize as being for an Enfield. I'll check those out next time I visit the store, the half price sale is still going on there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:31pm
Ok, thanks guys.
It looks like it's really just a bubba job. No problem It kind of felt that way right from the beginning. I'll pass on getting whatever bodge this was. Like I said, I'm not really a collectorof bayonets anyway so it's no big deal for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2010 at 6:50am
the more ive reread this thread the more confused ive become , but , im going to pull my book out and look again ........
 
meantime heres real ones for the no4 -
 
 
im waiting for delivery of a second #7 , not sure why i bought it , i guess i thought i needed some tradeing stock ........
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