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paddyofurniture View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2013 at 10:04am
I lived in Berlin for four years and say the Wall everyday.

I wish I was there to see it come down but I had left nine years before it fell.

Hoadie, there was a IRISH Brigade one each side.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2013 at 11:51am
I KNOW there was Irish on both sides...but if you hadda bin on the RIGHT side, ya would call it SHARPSBURG!!
Heathen!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2013 at 10:24pm
Hoadie,

As my Family is from western Maryland I do know the history of the bloodiest days.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2013 at 12:18am
SEE!? SEE!? Maryland...that automatically puts you on the wrong side! What a shame..Maryland COULD'VE SHOULD'VE (& almost did) join the south..but alas..twas not to be. You said you were at SHARPSBURG for 125th..what 'bout 1st & 2nd Manassass? Did you do G'Burg or Pittsburg Landing? If I recall correctly-SHARPSBURG & APPOMATOX were the only 2 I missed.(Couldn't make it to Sharpsburg,& refused to surrender @ APPO...but I did SAYLOR'S CREEK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2013 at 1:00am
I do not think so.

There are a few Gray Ghosts in my family. I did not know them to shake their hand but I honor their memory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2013 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

The Air Ministry approached the U.S. for help in developing an aircraft to replace the Spit.Spit was an awesome kite-but she lacked the range.Britain was maxed out in wartime production (so was Canada). The US hadn't entered the war yet-so had excess production capabilities.When they came to see what the states had developed-it was dissapointing.A slightly tweaked P-40, with an Allison engine..It just didn't cut it.BUT..rather than abandon the project-someone in the ministry saw the potential of the airframe & had 6 sent to Blighty WITHOUT engines.Once in Britain-they tweaked a few things(balance points & trusses etc) & added a MERLIN engine.This proved to be the answere-although was very difficult to fly at first.(Balances were off-giving her the propensity to flip end over end, among other things)After crashing a few, they had the answeres needed..& 1st 'Tangs went into production.They just kept getting better as aerodynamics & power plant improvements kept coming.
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Actually the Mustang owed little or nothing to the P-40 design. North American Aircraft co had hired a German immigrant who had worked for Fokker and he influenced the design as his idea of an improved ME fighter. This is one reason some of the early Mustangs were shot down by mistake, they looked too much like the ME-109. The later bubble canopy cured that ID problem.
If you check out some older war films the early model Mustangs and A-36 dive bomber version were often painted up to pass for ME-109 fighters on film.
 
There were a few P-40 fighter fitted with Merlin engines, but these were not much improved by the extra horsepower. Curtis aircraft co built a number of improved P-40 protypes but the basic design was simply not well suited to higher horsepower inline engines, the P-40 airframe having been a development of the radial engine P-36 fighter. The P-40 continued to soldier on as a ground attack and close air support fighter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2013 at 8:37pm
With all due respect, methinks you may be in error.
The British Purchasing Commission was sent to the U.S. with the aim of acquiring American built military aircraft, in 1938. This commission was led by Sir Henry Self.(They were already dealing with North American with the purchase of the AT-6 trainers-Harvards for Canucks). The pres.@ North Am was James H Kindelberger.(They called him "Dutch")He had worked @ Glen Martin & Douglas aircraft before joining N/American.He also tored Germany & Blighty to visit their aircraft factories in the late 30's.When it became apparent the P-40 upgrades werent going to "cut it" Kindelberger & his VP-Atwood approached Sir Henry with a proposal that THEY design a fighter.(They hadn't done that before).Self issued the order w/stipulations:protyotypes to be ready in 120 days,cost not to exceed $50,000.(It was actually designed, built & flown in 117 days!)They started with the ALLISON V-1710.After alot of development glitches, Sir Henry believed the design was sound, & placed an order for 300 NA-73's in Oct 1940. Theres alot more info availble on this in my library-if anyone is interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2013 at 9:33pm
I'm with Hoadie on this one.
The British wanted a US made firghter, but the only thing even close to the issied spec was the P-40. Unfortunately they were running at 100% capacity already & so North American was approached to make an under licence copy of the P-40 for the RAF.
N A suggested instead that they could design & build a better aircraft from scratch. That aircraft was the original P-51. It had a more modern design overall including "laminar flow" wings for les drag & a vastly better designed figelage as well. There was really no commonality between the P-40 & the P-51 except the Allison powerplant & that changed once a Merlin was introduced to the P-51 airframe for its superior high altuitude performace.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2013 at 9:44pm
The "laminar flow" wing wasn't intended for the new fighter.In fact, it was a bone of contention..which was ultimatley proved the right thing to do by Mr.Ed Horkey & his team.The initial wind tunnel tests in Calif were not good.Quite a setback.But another test in a bigger tunnel @ univ of Seattle proved the previous test had been misleading.Further design upgrades to reduce drag were then implemented.
The P-40 was kept on in strength with the commonwealth throughout because it was a good ground support aircraft, & fairly tough
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2013 at 5:51am
Gratuitous P-40, & P-51 pics from the Air & Space museum.Clap
"Lope's Hope" the Curtiss P-40, not the original flown by Donald S. Lopez Sr, the DD of the Smithsonian, but a copy.
 

Capt. Charles F. Blair’s “Excalibur III”, a P-51C modified for long range air racing.

 
 
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2013 at 7:20am
Very cool photos.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2013 at 10:11am
Has anyone read / owned this book, "National Air and Space Museum"by C.D.B. Bryan.

It is a great book. If you get a chance you will enjoy this book if you like aircraft.

The book is 10 inch by 12 inches with a thickness of about 2 inches. I would gladly leaned it out but postage would be a killer.

Let me know what you think.

Yes Hoadie there are lots of photos.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2013 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

With all due respect, methinks you may be in error.
The British Purchasing Commission was sent to the U.S. with the aim of acquiring American built military aircraft, in 1938. This commission was led by Sir Henry Self.(They were already dealing with North American with the purchase of the AT-6 trainers-Harvards for Canucks). The pres.@ North Am was James H Kindelberger.(They called him "Dutch")He had worked @ Glen Martin & Douglas aircraft before joining N/American.He also tored Germany & Blighty to visit their aircraft factories in the late 30's.When it became apparent the P-40 upgrades werent going to "cut it" Kindelberger & his VP-Atwood approached Sir Henry with a proposal that THEY design a fighter.(They hadn't done that before).Self issued the order w/stipulations:protyotypes to be ready in 120 days,cost not to exceed $50,000.(It was actually designed, built & flown in 117 days!)They started with the ALLISON V-1710.After alot of development glitches, Sir Henry believed the design was sound, & placed an order for 300 NA-73's in Oct 1940. Theres alot more info availble on this in my library-if anyone is interested.
Hoadie
 
Not sure why you think my post is in error.
Theres nothing in the P-51 design that harks back to the Curtis P-40. The airframes and wings are entirely different. The P-51 was never an upgraded P-40.
Edgar Schmued the North American engineer who designed the P-51 had immigrated to Brazil from Germany in 1925 and to the U S from Brazil in 1931.
And he had worked for Fokker in the United States. He and other U S aircraft designers studied the same experimental data compiled by European aircraft engineers and incorporated many of the features of the ME-109 in the new aircraft.
While not a copy of the ME by any means the similarity in the airframe design is obvious.
They also studied some data on oil coolers and such that came from Curtis' attempts to upgrade the P-40, but those Curtis prototypes were dead ends.
The Merlin engined upgrade of the P-40 were used by the U S Airforce and by the British and Free French with some sucess, but the Merlin engine used was an earlier and less efficient version than that later used by the P-51.
The early versions of the P-51 and the related A-36 Apache divebomber had used the Allison engine, the upgrade to the Merlin engine was natural under the circumstances and greatly increased performance.
 
PS
 
To be more clear.
Its a matter of "design philosophy".
The ME-109 was originally designed as a high altitude interceptor. Its low drag wing came at a price, the wing acheived low drag by being far thinner than normal for an aircraft in its class.
Because the wing was so thin its spars could not accomodate the landing gear strut attachment points and related machinery. The landing gear had to hinge down from the fueselage with wheels stowed in the wings when folded.
While the Laminar flow wing of the P-51 was not as efficient as hoped, it still acheived low drag while allowing the wings to be thick enough for sturdy landing gear attachment points with wing stowage and heavy ordnance and drop tank attachment points, as well as large wing guns of .50 to 20mm caliber.
Among the design features of the ME-109 that are found on the P-51 are the trapezoid wing planform with squared tips. This feature was one of several reasons that the Mustang was often mistaken for the ME-109. The later "F" and "G" versions of the ME-109 used a semi-elyptical wing tip, while the Japanese went to a squared wing tip more by guess and by golly when problems with the folding wing tips of Naval Zero fighters suffered damage and they test flew some with the rounded wing tips removed and found this improved speed and dive characteristics with little loss in manueverability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2013 at 11:18am
I have three large books on the P-51. Nowhere do I find any mention of Edgar.Schmeud. Where may I find some info on this guy..I don't consider wikipedia to be reliable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2013 at 3:14pm
Heres a couple of news stories on his death in 1985
 
An honor guard of six P-51 Mustangs did a flyover, five in the "Missing Man" formation the sixth scattering his ashes at sea.
There are memorials in his honor as the designer of the P-51.
 
Not every book gives the complete story. I have a fairly detailed book on all the P ( Pursuit ) series U S Fighters, designed before they switched to the F ( Fighter )designation.
Few of the guys who did the actual detailed design work on American aircraft ever got much credit for it. Schmued being a German born immigrant may have led to the company not mentioning his role in designing the P-51/A-36 aircraft. I'm sure the British would not have minded his heritage, but if there had been serious problems with the plane it would have been a PR nightmare.
Heres a book you might want to add to your library.
 
PS
While the Laminar flow wing of the P-51 was not as efficient as wind tunnel testing indicated, this was mainly due to degradation of the wing surfaces after some use. Wear and tear of painted surfaces could disrupt airflow at high speed, which may be why most latter P-51 fighters flew with bare polished metal instead of painted camo.
Later testing against German aircraft wings showed that these also suffered increased drag due to the relatively rough surfaces caused by hurried production. So it appears that the Laminar flow cross section did contribute more to speed and range than later testing had suggested.
Wing surface smoothness was very important to high speed aircraft. Some Naval Aviators actually shined up the leading edges of their wings with boot polish and claimed that gave them a 3-5 MPH increase in airspeed.
 
 
While Wiki is not the gretest source, it does give sources and links that you can use to check out their entries for accuracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2013 at 5:25am
Might I point out that the Messerschmitt  was designated Bf 109, having been developed before Willy Messerschmitt acquired the company.
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