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7.62 Lee Enfield Envoy

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Goosic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 4:20pm

[/QUOTE]

My recommendation is to do a search on what the Palma Match shooters use.  And it’s definitely not a 168 grain bullet. 


[/QUOTE]
They will use either the Sierra 155grn Palma Match bullet with a BC G1 of .450 or the Lapua Scenar-L with a BC G1 of .473 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smellie1953 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 11:54pm
Morning All.....No worries, but yes I do want to shoot this rifle out to 1000yds. Problem being the proof marks are 19T, which I believe equates to 42560psi. I need to find a load that will give me the mv to keep it stable to the distance yet within a safe pressure limit & therein lies the problem!
Interesting....
Thank you all for your time, I really appreciate it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smellie1953 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2022 at 12:01am
[QUOTE=Strangely Brown]The Envoy barrel is a 4 groove 1 in 12 right hand twist. (taken from the original Envoy sales leaflet!) 

The original bullet weight that the barrel was originally designed for was the RG 144gr but the bullet of choice in the early days of TR at Bisley was the 150gr SMK over 44gr's of N140, I still use this load in a Whitaker Special and in the past a couple of L39's I owned. 

The 155gr SMK came along slightly later at Bisley after the army adopted it for the L96 sniper rifle; this was after looking through the plot sheets of the match rifle fraternity who have a long history of experimental long range shooting.

My gut feeling would be to stick with the 155gr bullet if you want decent results on Stickledown!   

Thank you Mick, that's much appreciated. I will look into using N140 with a Lapua Scenar 155g, thanks again.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2022 at 12:44am
My bullet of choice for the 300x yard McQueens has also been the 168gr variety; firstly the 167gr Lapua Scenar and then the 168 SMK followed lastly by the 168gr TMK.
I also use the latter out to 1000x which works (just!) but is hampered by only having a 20" barrel on my AI AE. 
Mick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2022 at 4:19am
Originally posted by Smellie1953 Smellie1953 wrote:

Thanks to you both, much appreciated!
 I've been advised to try 41, 41.5 & 42g of VVN540 under the Lapua Scenar 155g, having run the pressures through a program it would seem that 42g would be just on the max pressure of 19 ton so I shall run some test rounds & see....I'll keep you posted!
Thanks again!

Those loads should be fine for the Envoy.  VihtaVuori website for this bullet with N540 shows 40.6 gr Min and 44.9 gr max for .308 Win. 

You might have to play with bullet seating depth.  If you have a bullet comparator gage, check what seating depth (cartridge base to ogive length) brings the bullet in contact with the lands, then back off by .020 inches.  Secant ogive bullets are more sensitive to how much jump to the lands than tangent ogive bullets. If you have a long throat, you might want to try a 175 gr SMK.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2022 at 7:43am
As far as you wanting to shoot out to 1000 yards? I highly recommend sticking with the 155grn Lapua Scenar-L or Palma Match from Sierra. 
Data from the Lapua Tactical LR community also suggests this as well.
Testing done using The Scenar/Scenar-L in 167grn, 175grn, and 185grn stop at 800m. They also tested the 170grn lock base along with the venerable 185grn D46 FMJrebatedBT and those too stop at 800m.
As a sidnote:
The 150grn Lapua Lock Base has proven itself in the Lapua LR community along with military and law enforcement applications as well. A VVN540 starting charge weight for that projectile is 42.9grns with a maximum charge weight of 46.3

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2022 at 8:28am
I assembled some 155 Palma SMK and 175 TMK loads with Varget a few months ago, but haven’t had a chance to get back to the 1000 yard range.  I’ll be shooting them from my UF56 No. 4 Mk 2 DCRA conversion. 

The 175 SMK has a very long history of success in Long Range Service Rifle matches (800, 900 and 1000 yards) for .30-06 and .7.62/.308.  I suspect they will also shoot quite good out of the No. 4 with service weight barrel or with 4 lb heavy barrel in the Envoy.

Even the Mk 7 .303 bullet is no slouch out to 1000 yds and has been used in the Commonwealth Service Rifle Matches since it was introduced into military service. 

If your shooting a Palma Match Rifle or other heavily built match rifle, you will see an advantage with the lighter higher BC 155’s as they get there quicker with less wind drift. These are usually shot from 30 or 32 inch barrels with a throat designed for the secant ogive bullets.  But in an Envoy, you might not see any advantage. 

 It will be interesting to see how the 155 Palma Match does in my No. 4, it has a pretty long throat.  I had to seat the bullets to an OAL of 2.85 inches, at it’s still 0.08 inches off the lands.  I’ll be very surprised if this works…



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2022 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Even the Mk 7 .303 bullet is no slouch out to 1000 yds and has been used in the Commonwealth Service Rifle Matches since it was introduced into military service. 
Back in my late teen years, me and my buddies would take our respective No4Mk1 rifles out behind one of Luke Air Forces auxiliary fields and using one end of the 4000 ft runway,(just under 1300 yards) as a shooting point, would fire at two 4'x4' metal targets painted red with a black X. Prone with a block of wood for forward support, we would consistently hit those targets using the Mk7 ammunition.  Standing and after figuring out where the bullets were striking we were able to effectively hit any section of those targets without a missed shot. Each shot took roughly 1.8- 2.0 seconds to reach the target as well. At 1000 yards the bullet would drop 308 - 310 inches/ 25 feet so we never actually aimed at the target.
Fun times those were...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2022 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by Smellie1953 Smellie1953 wrote:

Morning All.....No worries, but yes I do want to shoot this rifle out to 1000yds. Problem being the proof marks are 19T, which I believe equates to 42560psi. I need to find a load that will give me the mv to keep it stable to the distance yet within a safe pressure limit & therein lies the problem!
Interesting....
Thank you all for your time, I really appreciate it!
There actually is no issues with that PSI rating. The 303 British has a CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) of 45,000 CUP
On the Piezo Scale using a conversion tool, that equates to 50262 PSI
Your 42,560 PSI equates to 35,680 CUP. The U.S. military pressure tests are even lower than the Copper Crusher Method. 

I have been continuously using 41.5grns of IMR4064 under a .308 168grn BTHP. Hodgdons data indicates a PSI of 43,800.
Using a conversion tool, that equates to 37,181 CUP.
That is -7819 CUP under the British Ministry of Defenses established 45,000 CUP.
If you stay right at or under 42.0grns of VVN540 using the 155grn Scenar-L, your pressures should never exceed 45,000 CUP/50262 PSI. 
The choice is yours to do with as you see fit however...

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Thank you Mick!
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Thank you Goosic!
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Thank you Britrifles!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2022 at 5:44am
Originally posted by Smellie1953 Smellie1953 wrote:

Morning All.....No worries, but yes I do want to shoot this rifle out to 1000yds. Problem being the proof marks are 19T, which I believe equates to 42560psi. I need to find a load that will give me the mv to keep it stable to the distance yet within a safe pressure limit & therein lies the problem!
Interesting....
Thank you all for your time, I really appreciate it!

The 19 Tons Per Sq In is much more than 42,560 PSI Piezo Peak Pressure.   The British system of chamber pressure measurement is incompatible with both the US Radial Copper Crusher units and Piezo Peak Pressure Methods.  There is really no accurate way to convert the pressure in one method to the other.  The British system uses a copper crusher, but it is part of the bolt assembly in the pressure test rig.  An oiled cartridge is used acting as the piston.  So it is an axial pressure measuring system.

19T represented the average maximum pressures of the 7.62 NATO ball ammunition being used at the time in British service. That pressure is indeed lower than the SAMMI and European Standards for the .308 Winchester.  But the loads you described would very likely be within 19 TPSI using the British Axial Pressure measurement system.  The 7.62 Converted Rifles were actually Proof Pressure tested to higher pressure than 19TPSI.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smellie1953 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2022 at 6:45am
Thank you, that has taken some of the tension away when I pull the trigger for the first time!!!!! £££
I really appreciate your input, it is much appreciated, thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2022 at 9:32am
Get your wife to take the first shot...
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LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL Thumbs Up
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