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Aftermarket triggers?

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Zed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2018 at 4:10am
I like that rifle Shamu. Is it in .308?
Would love to try out something like that at long range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2018 at 6:37am
Yes its a Remington 700 BDL in .308.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2018 at 10:12am
Shamu:  Nice looking gun and I would be very happy with 1/3 MOA!

Now you need one of my Hand Presses to take to the range for load development to eek out that last little bit!.

Goto www.buchananprecisionmachine.com and check out the finest Portable Hand Reloading Press ever made.

Available to you with a 10% "Friends and Family Discount."

Randy


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2018 at 10:39am
A little OT, but a story on trigger adjustment. Buddy bought a used Tikka .22/250. It had been bedded and sported a 4x12 Leupold. Very accurate at the range but trigger pull was scary light! He wanted it adjusted. By my scale it was 16 oz. We had to take the action out of the stock but found the adjustment screw. After some tinkering, got it where he liked it. #2.5. (still light in my mind!) Then we applied some blue Lok Tite and Bobs your uncle!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2018 at 11:08am
"Add a small weld bead to the top angle of the sear where it contacts the frame."

EEK! 

Right away, to me that makes the 'gunsmith's' Lee expertise a little suspect.

The bent on the cocking piece should be polished to a mirror. Try that first it without changing any angles or removing anything but a coontair (a negligible amount) of material. The tip of the sear should radiussed at the edges and be smooth too. Help things slide.

There is a lot going on with the functionality of the trigger group. It looks simple in concept, but it is a tuned mechanical system, very clever the way it is done and what it does. If you 'improve' one aspect, there is a good chance you will f**k something else up.

It takes a number of times to master. If you want to give it a try, yes, have at her. But suggest that you buy another set of trigger parts to work on, chances are that you will screw up the first few sets that you 'adjust'. This is the voice of experience talking here. Ermm I have a bunch of cocking pieces and sears in the junk drawer because of my best intentioned handiwork. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2018 at 2:34pm
Actually that's a variation on a factory technique! (scary as it may sound). The factory had a special tool you could make which "split" the rear of the frame, peeling a small "finger" down to achieve the same result.
Its not the engaging (rear) surface, you can polish that too, but what it does is slightly lower the engagement between the sear's upper bent where it contacts the front of the cocking pieces bent. Done properly its safe, but the amount you have to drag the sear over the face is reduced so reducing "creep" in second pull.

Instead of bending the receiver lip down he's adding metal to the top of the sear arm.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2018 at 6:14pm
Thanks for that Shamu. The pics in the diagrams are exaggerated for illustration. The material upset to move the resting position of the sear is mere thousandths of an inch.

Another common related and connected problem found is the sear tip dragging or clipping the under lug on the bolt as it passes. I have seen instances of the under lug filed down to give clearance. I did see armourer's notes about removing material from the lug, but only a minimal amount.

As the body wears, it allows the sear to sit at rest higher and higher until the tip starts to touch the lug as it goes by. The fix is to use the handy dandy tool as your diagrams show, the tool pretty well locates itself and a whack with a hammer upsets material where the sear rests against the receiver body. Armourer's notes says that this can only be done once, then the body is scrap.

I get exactly the the same result using my pet center punch. I put a pair of punched dots approx 1/16 inch from the edge of the body down inside the gallery. The punch marks are enough to displace material to lower the sear. If not, tap, tap, tap to make the punch marks deeper displacing more metal. There is fine window of adjustment between the sear tip sitting nicely to the bent's edge and clearance to the under lug. 
I have found that often with reworked and 'adjusted' cocking pieces, a happy medium cannot be found. Too easy to try to fix one thing and screw up another. I have had much practice in screwing things up. However, I do learn from my mistakes. I screw up less as I get practice.

I have learnt that if and when I inspecting a cocking piece for selection for a project, if it has anything other than the original factory grind on the bent, I pass on it. A slight wear mark is fine, but no improvement with a stone thanks.  Not worth the headache, the result is always a disappointment.

Too many people think that they know what they are doing and f*** things up with triggers and sears. I spend a lot of time undoing others' 'improved trigger pull'. Invariably I end restoring proper function by changing out modified parts for untouched ones to get things working as they should.

Junk rifles get stripped and sold off as parts. Lots of buggered sears and cocking pieces for sale on ebay. I can tell just by looking at pics, or, by the lack of pics. Caveat emptor.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2018 at 6:15am
Yeah its a subtle thing. but if done properly it worked. The weld dot is a different way of doing the same thing though you can put on  a dab & stone back to fine tune with some "Dykem"to show engagement on the sear face.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2018 at 7:57am
I have to strongly disagree to the use of his weld method. To me it is only one step up from JB Welding brass shim stock to the back of the sear (I found such on a Bubba special, there was more to it than that. It did work, but just making it work is not a repair to my standard...).

To move the position of the sear tip where it rests on the cocking piece bent face, we are talking only thousandths of an inch at the sear stop in the body. Seems a bit redundant to me to add a blob of weld on the sear (which is a casting) and then file it all back except for two or three thou. 

However, there are more than one ways to skin a cat. This method works for the dude, but this gives me the impression that he has never read the Instructions for Armourers, or if he has, he thinks that he knows better than they. Nowhere ever will you find instructions to weld anything anywhere on any part of a Lee. 

I could have the sear rest position adjusted and set in less time than it would take for him to pull his welder out.

As always, filters are required for information found on the internet.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2018 at 10:59am
I must be missing something here.  What does tweaking that little tit actually do.  Does it just limit the amount of engagement of the Bent with the Sear?

Also I guess I have some misunderstanding on the names of the parts.

There is a Trigger,,, The thing you pull, The Bent which is the Vee shaped piece, and there is the Cocking piece which has the Sear hanging down to interact with the Bent ?

What I have found on my guns is that the sear on the cocking piece always seems to have a little groove in it where the Bent engages it as the bolt is closed, or more properly Slammed shut during reloading. This needs to be stoned out.

The Angle of the Sear is such that as the bent slides down towards release it actually pushes the cocking piece rearward.  I don't think this was done on purpose but is just the product of the tip of the Bent moving thru an Arc due to being pivoted around a fixed point. Instead it proved to be an important safety feature. 

Changing the angle of the Sear would be unsafe IHMO as that resistance of the cocking piece moving to the rear prevents the Bent from inadvertently sliding off the sear and firing if mis-handled, which happens frequently in the Trenches of a Battlefield.

Both my guns have a trigger pull which is right at 6 lbs with about a 1/16th to 1/8th" of creep. The point in the creep just before let off is easily learned. We call it Slack Plus and then bang.

The "6 lbs" part is mostly due to the power of the Striker spring not the mechanics of the trigger system. If you want to reduce the trigger pull weight the easiest way is to install a weaker Striker Spring.  Wolf Springs from Brownell's probably has something.

I have found that a little dab of some Moly Grease on the sear face and on the bumps of the trigger itself works wonders on the smoothness of the trigger on these rifles.

My personal opinion is that trying to radically improve the Trigger pull on these guns is similar to improving the trigger on a 12th Century Crossbow, as this mechanism is about one click above that in sophistication.

My .02

Randy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2018 at 2:10pm
The upper bent (arm) of the sear (the "V" shaped thing) rests about 3/16" up the front face of the cocking piece (the flat bit at the back of the bolt.)
By stopping the sear rotating 100% bringing the top bent UP fully you reduce the "extra" engagement beyond the actual tip itself. This in turn means you don't have to drag it across the "extra bit" of the cocking piece face before it releases.
This gives a feel of a smoother trigger. It should be fully engaged, but as little as possible extra.

The thing is, as deceptively simple as the mechanism seems there's a lot of compound leverage going on in there, dropping the 20Lbs, or so, of striker spring pressure down to the 3 1/2 ~5 Lbs of trigger pull! Very small changes can be magnified dozens of times as the process goes from slack to first pressure to second pressure & then releasing the striker. Because of that great care & a big dollop of experience is needed before safely messing with it.
Just look at how switching from the first trigger "bump" to the next one changes the dynamic of the action (A & B) for example, that how "First & Second" pressure is created.
You mention stoning the groove out of the cocking piece, which brings another 2 variables into play!
The face is only case (surface) hardened, if you stone that away the metal is quite soft & will wear abnormally, you also have to dead nutz on accurately maintain the exact angle too as that determines a lot of the triggers weight!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2018 at 2:48pm
Trigger is the thing that you pull, the V shaped thing is the sear, the cocking piece is at the back of the bolt and the flat front face of it onto which the sear bears is called the bent. Basically much the same on any trigger system, the sear trips off the bent to release.

The angle of the bent and action of the sear moving the cocking piece rearwards when you pull the trigger, as you have observed, is not by accident. With a properly adjusted trigger group, if at the point of trigger break, you relax trigger pressure, the sear should slide back up the bent and the cocking piece moves forward returning to its rest position. This is useful in that the trigger resets if you change your mind and dont fire. Otherwise the trigger would sit still at the point of breaking when you let off which could be unsafe.

Changing the angle of the bent lightens trigger pull but at the expense of the trigger resetting. Another reason not to adjust if you don't know what you are doing.

The system is very clever, two trigger pressures using two different mechanical advantages by use of two moving parts. Uses just one spring common to both trigger system and magazine release. Brilliant! Simple but sophisticated. (Can you tell that I am a big fan of the design?)

For simple, check out the early Lee Metford system. It also resets if you release the trigger.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2018 at 6:46pm
This answers some questions.  Stoning the "bent" as you call it is not hard to get right if you stone cutting tools regularly.  Probably .002 or less is removed, and the angle is not changed as long as you keep the diamond stone flat against the face.  If you rock it back and forth like amateurs do then you will screw up the part.

The part about Case Hardening is for sure, but it has to be a little more than .002 deep so you can do this at least once and get away with it. Even with the case it is not all that hard if the sear will dent it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2018 at 8:19pm
Some people can use a stone and keep things perfectly flat by hand and eye. Stoning the bent for me is best achieved by jigging the cocking piece to present it squarely to a guided stone.  

I cheat by holding the cocking piece in a tiny bench vice that has parallel jaws and a flat top. I position the nose of the cocking piece so that its bent is flat and level with the top surface of the vise jaws. I then use that top surface to keep my stone flat and square. I finish off with with jewellers rouge on a linen cloth wrapped on a flat metal backer to bring on the polished shine.

The mark where the nose of the sear has worn, I find usually does not make a problem with pull off, even if there is a little divot. The initial movement of the first stage trigger pull overcomes it without one even feeling it. 

A new old stock cocking piece right out of the preservative will benefit from a bit of a polish too. Just ensure that you work with strokes in the same direction as the travel of the sear (vertical). No matter how polished surfaces are, when they slide against each other, there will be drag. The goal is just try to minimise it. 

Changing out the striker spring for a lighter one actually has a minimal effect on the weight of trigger pull, but can cause other issues. I have a .22 trainer that has a lightened striker spring, lightened sear spring and a polished bent. It breaks crisply at about three pounds, but way too sensitive for a battle rifle. I can get away with it because .22 rim fire cartridges don't take much of a striker hit to crush the rim and fire.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2018 at 7:09am
In all honesty I don't stone the parts.
Zed has a neat jig he made too.
I have "polished" them with a bit of "Scotchbrite" if they're brand new though. I find this smoothing together with a small dab of embedding graphite grease I get the same effect without risking klutzfingerdness to become involved!
(A little schmear on the trigger "bumps", the flat on the lower bent where they contact the sear, the cocking piece front face & the tip of the upper leg of the sear with a single Q-tip is plenty)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2018 at 12:02pm
The cocking piece bent angle on the L39 is different to that of the standard No4.The L39's trigger weight is less because of the change in angle; as the rifle was specifically for targhet shooting. However the sear still rises back up the bent face if you decide not to shoot and release the pressure on the trigger. So it is still safe. When deciding to modify the trigger of my No1 MkIII*, I decided to set the bent angle mid way between the standard rifle and the L39; therefore unsuring a proper safety margin.

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