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Effect of Primer Selection on Muzzle Velocity |
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A square 10
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Posted: January 19 2025 at 5:10pm |
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ya , im surprised there are any available , but a lot of folks on another site say they can get them readily ,
came back to add they most all said they worked great but were harder like the chedites
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britrifles
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Posted: January 25 2025 at 3:11pm |
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I completed the bullet seating depth test today on the No. 4 (T). Conditions were clear, temps 43-47 deg F with light and variable winds. Shot off the bench with a front bag rest and rifle held into the shoulder.
Load: PPU Case, neck sized with two reloads WLR Primer 40.5 grains Varget (ADI AR2208) all charges weighed 174 gr Sierra MatchKing Cartridge Overall Length from 3.050 to 3.070 in .005” increments 6 shots of each increment in COAL. There was virtually no correlation of MV to COAL: COAL MV ES # Shots 3.050 2407 48 6 3.055 2406 56 6 3.060 2393 102 6 3.065 2392 52 6 3.070 2420 100 6 These are some high extreme spreads in velocity, particularly 3.060 and 3.070 COAL. 3.060 had the slowest shot at 2350 fps and the 3.070 COAL had the max velocity at 2490 fps. Excluding these two shots gives the MV and ES as follows: COAL MV ES # Shots 3.050 2407 48 6 3.055 2406 56 6 3.060 2402 75 5 3.065 2392 52 6 3.070 2405 24 5 I had larger vertical POI spreads on this test than on previous tests at the same muzzle velocity. I don’t know why. Perhaps variable bullet jump at the same velocity is different than variable charge weight at the same velocity. But, the trend of increasing elevation with increasing muzzle velocity is still there, as are large muzzle velocity Extreme Spreads despite weighing every charge. These are some of the largest ES values I have seen. Hard to make any firm conclusions here, but the 3.05” OAL showed the lowest elevation spread. This happens to have been my standard .303 match load for many years. 3 of 6 shots were within the height of the X ring with two more just outside the X ring height (open triangles in the plot below). ![]() I’m beginning to suspect the barrel is the cause of the large muzzle velocity extreme spreads. Although it has less than 2000 rounds through it, there is significant pitting in the grooves. I’m tempted to screw on a new CBI barrel and see how it does. |
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Shamu
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Posted: January 25 2025 at 3:51pm |
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Do you crimp?
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: January 25 2025 at 4:13pm |
No, never shown before to be an advantage. Not to me anyway. |
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Shamu
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Posted: January 25 2025 at 6:48pm |
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Have you ever tried reducing the expander ball slightly by polishing with a very fine abrasive? It increases neck tension which might help with your variations? You don't intentionally remove anything just buff it to a mirror shine. The removal of high spots from the machining does shrink it a G.B.H. though. I chuck it in a power drill & use Green ScotchBrite. Its one of my little accuracy tricks.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: January 25 2025 at 7:05pm |
Yes, I have done that on my FL dies. These happened to be neck sized cases in a Lee Collet die. I’ve experimented with different sized mandrels and expanders as well (-0.001, -0.002). Once I started annealing case necks, I went back to a standard size expander and mandrel. Something suddenly changed today, had trouble with lateral spreads too even though there was little to no wind. Lateral zero was off by 3 minutes. I wonder if the scope graticule has come loose, sure hope not. I check the mount thumb screws during the shoot, they remained tight. Pads not loose either. Might remove the scope and shoot with aperture sight. |
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Shamu
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Posted: January 26 2025 at 11:12am |
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When was the scope last serviced? I had a Hensoldt Ferro ZF24 that had a reticle that always "settled down" after a few rounds when adjusted. It has a similar adjustment system where you back off a lock spin the turret & then tighten clamping the knob & internal mechanism together. My other identical scope had no such problems. It turned out the actual adjustment mechanism lube had dried massively forming a thick grease! It was so thick the spring opposite it had to be "jiggled" by recoil to actually move the internal tube fully!
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: January 26 2025 at 11:33am |
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Funny you should ask that Shamu. I just check the scope graticule movement by carefully (lightly) clamping the scope and mount in a vice and sighting out the window at the top of a tree about 1/2 mile away. The windage movements (clicks) are very positive and repeatable, and return to “0” after several L/R 10 minute adjustments. I then tapped on the scope to see if there was any graticule movement and there was none.
This gave me the opportunity to check parallax, and it is definitely parallax free at that distance. I can detect a slight amount of parallax error at 100 yds, perhaps 1 MOA at most at the extreme edge of the view thru the eyepiece. I’m quite relieved to see this, worried the scope was nackered. ![]() My Dad made that vice in High School, about 1947. He made the sand casting molds too and had a local foundry pour them. Wished he had stamped his name and date into the base. ![]() I’m beginning to suspect I’m “over cleaning” this barrel. The grooves are somewhat pitted, and perhaps it needs some carbon build up to smooth it out and settle the barrel vibrations down. This might reduce bullet velocity variations too. For years, my routine has been Hoppes 9, but I recently changed to C4 which is taking the bore down to bare steel every time. Looking back thru the target plots, groups opened up after the first time cleaning down to bare steel. Although such a cleaning routine works on new match grade barrels, perhaps not so on old pitted service grade barrels. This cleaning is with just Hoppes, and I’ll see how it shoots next time out. |
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Shamu
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Posted: January 26 2025 at 4:38pm |
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I wasn't about to mention that but it IS a valid thought. Why it would be mainly vertical makes me doubt it somehow?
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: January 27 2025 at 3:56am |
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Well, truth be told, I’m seeing larger lateral dispersions too, particularly on this last test that had a whopping 140 fps ES. But I’ve been ignoring these during the tests looking for the cause of vertical spreads.
I just borescoped the barrel after soaking in Hoppes 9 since Saturday afternoon, it is quite dark with carbon. But, it feels smoother pushing patches thru than it does after cleaning to bare steel with C4. I’m going to shoot the rifle a few more times letting the carbon harden up. If it doesn’t improve, I’ll replace the barrel. One other thing I’ve noticed. High velocity shots go high, but they also go right. Low velocity shots go low-left. It’s quite noticeable. Either the bolt locking lugs don’t have even contact or the scope affects the way the action bends under load. The scope mount is quite stiff and screwed to the left side of the action body, so there could be a tendency for the action to bend towards the right (pointing the muzzle to the right). The amount of deflection would be proportional to the thrust load on the bolt. |
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britrifles
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Posted: January 27 2025 at 8:07am |
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I've plotted up the Horizontal POI spreads vs muzzle velocity. This confirms my suspicion that POI shifts right as MV increases.
But I now see that the 3.050 inch Cartridge Overall Length produced the smallest group in both horizontal and vertical spreads. I suspect because of neck tension on the bullet, or this bullet does better with more jump to the lands. I'll add the plot to this thread when I get home.
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britrifles
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Posted: January 27 2025 at 2:58pm |
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Here are the horizontal shot spreads vs Muzzle Velocity on the bullet seating depth test I did last Saturday. The plot of vertical spread vs muzzle velocity is shown above.
Winds were 1 to 3 mph (variable direction), even at 600 yards, not much effect on horizontal spreads, less than 1 minute.
You will see that I did not get the rifle zeroed up before this test, the MPI is about 1 minute left. However, only 3 of 30 shots were outside of just over a 2 minute horizontal spread, so perhaps not all that bad, even for a No. 4 T. Load: PPU Case, neck sized 2x WLR Primer 40.5 gr Varget, all charges weighed 174 gr SMK OAL from 3.05 to 3.07 in .005” increments, six shots at each increment. What surprised me was the very large velocity Extreme Spread (140 fps). Note the trend of horizontal POI moving right as velocity increases, especially at the extreme minimum and maximum muzzle velocity. Ive seen this before with this rifle, high shots usually go right as well, which costs more points lost on the target. I suspect it is the action flexing more at higher pressures. The smallest vertical and horizontal spread was with the 3.050 inch cartridge overall length (1.4 MOA horizontal and 1.80 MOA Vertical). But extreme spreads in all three parameters (muzzle velocity, elevation POI and horizontal POI) were large compared to past shooting results. All that I did differently was to completely remove all fouling from the bore before this shoot. The grooves in this barrel are quite pitted (photo below) and perhaps the carbon helps to smooth bullet travel, lessen velocity variations and lessen barrel vibrations. This time, I cleaned with Hoppes 9 so next shoot will start with a fair bit of fouling remaining. ![]() A deteriorating barrel always first shows up at long range, then progressively works towards short range. This test was at 600 yards. If leaving some controlled amount of fouling in the bore does not reduce group size, a new barrel will be fitted. I don’t see how else I can reduce the velocity extreme spreads with my loading methods. And I know now that this is the cause of wide groups and poor scores with this rifle. ![]() |
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Zed
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Posted: January 29 2025 at 4:18am |
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Geoff, is the No4T T bedding standard or modified?
I ask, because I recently had a look at my No4mk1. The pressure of the fore end on the barrel had slackened off. This rifle is the air dropped 1944 Maltby. I adjusted the fore end to get about 5 lb of upward pressure at the muzzle. I also adjusted the fit at the Knox form, removing a high spot on the wood. It has tightened up the group nicely. I tested it last Weekend with the remaining rounds of the last test. It seems to like 40 grains of N202. Only 50 m test, but I shot 8 rounds of the 40 grains load. 7 of which made a 1"square group and the 8th off to the left , which I think was me. Standard sights and front bag support. So I have decided to shoot it at the ISR in February instead of the Fulton's No4mk1/2.
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britrifles
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Posted: January 29 2025 at 4:51am |
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Shaun, this forend has a barrel bearing at the middle lightening slot in the forend, just behind the sling swivel band. The slot was filled with wood and a hardwood bearing block glued in. I’ve measured the barrel pressure on the bearing, but can’t remember what this was. The work was done by the DCRA Armorer in the 1960’s. I’ve shot some very good groups with this rifle, approaching 1 MOA at 300 yards. 600 yard groups are larger, 2 MOA at best.
I believe the scope and mount affects the muzzle “jump”. The mount is quite stiff. Maj Reynolds wrote about a trial carried out by the Small Arms Inspectorate at Enfield in 1945 on 24 No. 4 T rifles to ascertain the affect the telescope and mount had on the angle of jump: Without Scope Fitted 4.5 to 12.5 Minutes With Scope Fitted -2.0 to 4.75 Minutes Clearly, the scope does have an affect. I don’t know how much jump would be necessary for the rifle to show positive compensation, but it would have to be a positive (muzzle moving upward) value. The test shows some rifles had a negative angle of jump (muzzle moving down as the bullet exits the barrel). None of this should affect muzzle velocity though. I still don’t have a good explanation to offer for why I’m getting large extreme spreads. But I am hoping that leaving some carbon fouling in the grooves will settle it back down to where this rifle was shooting before. 2 MOA at 600 yds May be as good as it gets with this barrel. |
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britrifles
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Posted: January 31 2025 at 12:43pm |
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Heading back to the range tomorrow. Will shoot the T again and see if I can determine if the scope and mount affects muzzle “jump” and “compensation”. I will do this by shooting at 200 yards, with and without the scope fitted and shoot two different loads, 40.0 gr and 41.5 gr of Varget.
The angle of “Jump” is the bullet angle of departure from the barrel relative to the direction the barrel is pointed before the shot is fired. Barrel vibration and action body flexure is what causes “jump”. While I can’t precisely measure that angle, I can determine the difference in angle of jump by shooting two different loads of different velocities with the scope and without. I can also see if the rifle shows any positive compensation with or without scope. If there is compensation, fast bullets will hit the 200 yd target at a lower POI compare to slow bullets. This figure illustrates how compensation works, an article written by Maj EGB Reynolds in the American Rifleman in 1969: ![]() The difference in elevation POI between the two loads and with/without the scope will be different if the scope does indeed affect jump. In reviewing last weeks tests on bullet seating depth, I realized that the last 10 shots of the 30 round test were quite good, even though they were five different bullet seating depths (OAL from 3.05 to 3.07 inches in .005 inch increments). Those ten shots had an elevation spread of just 1.35 MOA at 600 yds, well under the height of the MR target 10 ring. Perhaps this barrel does need some fouling to group well. |
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Shamu
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Posted: January 31 2025 at 5:03pm |
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Ask a hunter ![]() They'll tell you they use a fouling shot or sight for a "cold, clean Bore" because the first round is the money shot! ![]() |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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