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303 British Brass Options? |
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 8404 |
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Posted: December 20 2023 at 5:58pm |
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I think if you keep all your brass sorted and at the same number of reloads between annealing, it works just fine.
The AMP folks did extensive tests measuring neck hardness and it shows hardness increasing with each sizing and firing cycle (rather obvious perhaps). It was enough to convince me that there are only two consistent stable points in neck tension, after annealing or after a significant number of reloads, perhaps 6 or more. At that point, subsequent resizing does not increase neck hardness. But, annealing is not as simple as you might think. Getting consistent results to obtain a fully annealed condition is tricky. How much inconsistent annealing affects accuracy is somewhat debatable, but Benchrest and F-Class shooters fret about it. Probably not measurable with a Lee Enfield, especially shooting in position with irons. |
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Goosic
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Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8842 |
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Posted: December 21 2023 at 1:20am |
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You are getting your information from second hand information that you have read about regarding N540 from LR shooters. The same shooters that need to keep the velocities up to get the bullet down range post haste. Every written testimonial about a burned out barrel came from a LR or F-Class "Bob Lee Swagger Shooter" that is firing more rounds down range on a weekend than your average shooter does in a year. Your comment "experimented on and well proven" is taken with a grain of salt. I predominantly use the N540 for my .243W loads which are kept to a bare minimum in charge weight and have been tested between temperatures of 17°F and 117°F with no noticeable change in accuracy or pressure variances. AR small bore calibers range anywhere from .204 Ruger to 6.8 SPC with the .223 Rem. being the most common and reloaders have a tendency to keep the bullet weights @ 55grns which even using a "mild" charge weight, the averaged FPS is still above 3000+ regardless if you use a single base or double based propellant. You will still burn the barrel out using a single based propellant, it just takes a little longer. I use the minimum charge weight of 37.7grns when using N540 in my .308W chambered rifles and my chronographed FPS has been averaged out to 2246. I use the minimum charge weight of 39.7grns for the .303B rifles and the chronographed FPS has been averaged out to 2377. Very respectable numbers for both calibers. Definitely not worried about throat erosion with those low FPS readings. Even with the .243W, the FPS has been shown to stay consistently around 2799 with a plus or minus fluctuation of no more than 10-12 FPS. Unless you have done your own research and verifications using N540 in a .243Win, .308W, and .303B chambered rifle such as I have, taking your word for it seems a little foolhardy. All rifle barrels will eventually become useless if you keep firing enough rounds down range regardless of smokeless powder used... Post Script: I took notice that you continuously shoot at distances between 500 and 1000 yards as often as possible and you NEED to keep the velocities up to trigger the electronic sensor on the target. You would therefore need to keep the charge weight closer to or right at the maximum charge weight to achieve the velocity to trigger those sensors. I can see where using a double based smokeless propellant will eventually burn a barrel out at those higher velocities but, I can see a single based smokeless propellant doing the same thing... |
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britrifles
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Posted: December 21 2023 at 4:18am |
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Yup, those first two statements are indeed true. Read again what I said my long range Varget load is, exactly at the published mid range charge weight. I’ve achieved the required velocity at the 1000 yd target by bullet selection, not by pumping up the powder charge. Muzzle velocities are modest with these loads, it’s the very low ballistic coefficient of the bullet that minimizes the velocity drop out to the target. And I don’t “continuously shoot between 500 and 1000 yards”, that is irrelevant anyway. The two barrels I burned out on my AR were from shooting at 200 and 300 yards. And these were not 50-55 grain bullets shot at at high velocity either, they were 69 and 80 grain bullets with mid-range loads. Throat erosion occurs as a function of the cumulative amount of powder that is burned. And it takes less double based propellant than single based propellant to cause the same damage to the bore. Think of what Mk 7 cordite does vs Mk7z NC powder. These are loaded with the same bullet at the same velocity. Cordite is a double based propellant and burns out the throat in probably less than 1/3 of the total number of rounds fired. N540 may not be as bad as Cordite, but the thermodynamic principles still apply. Double based propellants contain Nitroglycerin which burns hotter. You won’t convince me I should use N540, and Im not telling anyone not to. I’m just explaining why I won’t use it in a Lee Enfield. I suppose if that was the only powder I had access to, I would use it. But I’ve put my AA2520 aside and don’t plan to use that powder either. I’ve got much better choices at my disposal. |
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Goosic
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Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8842 |
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Posted: December 21 2023 at 5:17am |
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By no means at all am I trying to convince you to use the VihtaVuori N540 and I understand that nitroglycerin burns hot. What I am merely suggesting is that if you do not use it on a regular basis and only have the testimonies of others and none of your own regarding its capabilities of burning down a rifle barrel in 1500 rounds or less, you would be wise to do less badmouthing the product and more actual research by using it for yourself. The one comment I focused on from a F-Class shooter was quoted as saying, "I was at a 3 Day shoot and my barrel was trashed before I had got past 1300 rounds out of it! It has to be because I used the 500 series VihtaVuori instead of sticking to the 100 series." 3 days and 1300 rounds? I know of a person that has owned their respective rifle for 50 plus years and have yet to put 150 rounds through it. It is not the powder, rather the shooter who is to blame for the short barrel life. Single or double based propellant will erode a barrel down to becoming useless if you are firing that rifle repeatedly and often, especially if you are trying to be as competitive with it as possible. Remember this Geoff. There are people that do not have the time or money to invest in weekend "Sport Shooting" and that includes being able to replace a junked barrel whenever. Those people shoot when time and money allows them to do so and with that, they take the necessary time to research their chosen bullet weight and propellant and then they sparingly use it to keep both theirself and equipment in check. Your comment, "I've got much better choices at my disposal." is great, for you. Not so much for the shooter that can only afford 1 brand, such as VihtaVuori, which is currently a bargain brand propellant. I have said this before and it bears repeating. You do you and let others do them... |
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Shamu
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Posted: December 21 2023 at 3:17pm |
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Any barrel, with any powder will eventually wear out. It was pretty much Voodoo when exactly under what circumstances until the arrival of "poor man budget" available bore-scopes. Now we can actually see what was previously "shiny, it must be clean, & so good. Its a really humbling experience the first few times. Bores that hone like a mirror have gouges & other stuff in them & seeing them at fairly high magnification is a learning experience!
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 8404 |
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Posted: December 21 2023 at 4:07pm |
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What surprised me was the sudden loss in accuracy at 600 yds when the throat erodes. I never trash a barrel based on a throat measurement or a borescope inspection. Accuracy on the target is the sole discriminator. After about 1400 rounds, I noticed 600 yard groups had doubled in size. Then 300 yard groups increased, then 200 yds. Ugly 4 MOA groups. I puzzled with this, talked to many very experienced service rifle shooters and decided to change the barrel. Well, my groups were cut in half and life was good again.
Then, 1400 to 1500 rounds later on the second barrel it happened again! That’s when I did extensive research on double based powders. I then switched to H4895 for my service rifle. Barrel #3 is going strong, at 3600 rounds now, and still shoots MOA at 600x. I’m not making this up guys. I learned my lesson. If you don’t believe me that double based propellants burn hot, put a few thousand rounds of Mk 7 ammo thru your LE then see how it shoots (don’t do it). I used to use Re 15 with my No. 4. I shot quite a bit of it, perhaps 1500 rounds. I wished I had not, I suspect most of the throat erosion was done with that powder. This is the rifle that now has a whopping 1/2 inch jump to the lands and no longer shoots well, need a new barrel. The first three inches of the bore looks like an alligator. Well, I’ve said enough, I just wanted to spare anyone here of learning the hard way, especially with a LE were NOS barrels are no longer found. And of course, if you’re shooting a few rounds a year, don’t worry about it. But if you’re shooting hundreds a year, worry about it. |
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Shamu
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Posted: December 21 2023 at 5:54pm |
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"The first three inches of the bore looks like an alligator. " THIS!
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: April 03 2024 at 3:48am |
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I was aware of the 2520 recall and checked my stock and was not from this lot.
I’ve read about others who had a similar experience using 2520. It was at one time used by many shooters in the M1A in Service Rifle matches (.308 Win) and Accurate nicknamed it the “Camp Perry” powder. Well, not many Service Rifle shooters use it now! I think the key factor is how much rapid fire strings you shoot. This just came up on the thread from SW28fan on Accurate 2700. I had bought 32 lbs of that stuff too… |
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