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Military vs Homegrown

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The Armourer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2020 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

We often overlook the minor details of things like what distance the velocity measurements are taken and the length of the barrel.  US .30 Cal and 7.62x51 published military cartridge data is based in instrumental measurements at 78 ft from the muzzle and for the weapon they are primarily intended for.  So, for M852 with the spec mean velocity of 2550 fps corresponds to about 2700 fps at the muzzle (from a 22 inch barrel) based on a ballistics calculation for the 168 gr SMK. 

I’m not sure what the British standard distance was for measuring bullet velocity, and if it was corrected to velocity at the muzzle.  The Mk 7 cartridge had a specified mean velocity of 2440 fps.  Does anyone know had far from the muzzle that measurement was taken or if that is a velocity calculated at the muzzle?  Much of the Mk 7z Canadian surplus I have tested runs about 2420 to 2440 fps at approx 20 feet from the muzzle (25 inch barrel).  

I only bring this up as these two factors (barrel length and distance from muzzle where velocity is specified or measured) are often overlooked when we attempt to duplicate a factory load.  Most loading manuals will give velocities at the muzzle and the barrel length for which it applies to.  



The only information I have is on the cartons of British produced MkVII.

Taken at the muzzle.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2020 at 2:33pm
I believe it may have been times for the "100m" & back calculated from that.
Chronographs back then were infinitely more of a PITA to set up or use as they relied on printed paper "screens" with conducting ink/paint. They were good for one shot Then you'd set them up with new ones & start all over.
Timing TOF & calculating was much easier.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2020 at 2:46pm
Did I mention that was really good shooting?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2020 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Honkytonk Honkytonk wrote:

Did I mention that was really good shooting?
Thank you HT. I definitely appreciate it. It was 46° with a 11mph crosswind across the range, I was not dressed for the occasion so I was a tad cold and I had absolutely no time for any sighting in stuff. It was a cold bore shot the second the range was cleared for live fire and from there on out, it was a race against the clock to get everything accomplished.  I am going out next Wednesday without the chronograph.  I will be using my M700P this time just to see if I can tighten the groups up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enfield Envoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2026 at 8:08am
A interesting project.. A comparison of such types of ammunition - usually - benefits from 1 or several more cartridge-types.
Among factory-ammo, the Norma 168 gr Diamond Line Match is ballistically very close to the M852 ‘Mexican Match".
This Norma reached its MV of 2549 f/s resp. 777 m/s from the CIP-24-inch-barrel in a tight, few used D73-27,5-inch-Enfield-Matchbarrel too.. Surprisingly. One would have expected rather either an increase or a decrease in MV. That's why.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enfield Envoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2026 at 8:14am
The pic says more than 1000 words... Wink






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enfield Envoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2026 at 5:00am

.308 Win. Norma Military Production 168 gr HPBT Match 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2026 at 11:09am
NIce.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2026 at 4:54am
Factory ammunition quality for “match grade” products have made large improvements over the years. So much so that handloads don’t have the large accuracy advantage they once did. However, there is always the possibility that a tuned handload will produce tighter groups than factory, but we are talking small differences that may only show up in perhaps F-Class and bench rest shooting.  

The other good reason to hand load is you have full control of the variables, like chamber pressure.  I decided I would not shoot .308 Win factory loads thru my DCRA, not knowing how close they are to .308 Win max pressures with the chamber/throat on my No. 4 7.62 conversions.  They are all probably fine, but no good reason to take the chance when you can handload. 

The claim that Norma is making that the diamond line (moly coated) bullets substantially increases barrel life is interesting. Barrel life is governed by throat erosion and that has a lot to do with powder burn temps and pressures. While the claim might be true in the sense that a one for one substitute of a plain jacketed bullet with a moly coated bullet keeping the same powder and charge weight would slightly lower pressures due to lower friction, bullets loaded to the same velocities seems unlikely there would be much difference in barrel life. 

NOS Enfield hammer forged heavy barrels for the L39/L42/Envoy must be very hard to find. But if the barrel life is truly doubled by substituting a plain jacketed bullet for a moly coated bullet, I would probably do that.  Alternatively, you can shoot reduced pressure loads for short to mid range work, save the “full” pressure loads for long range.  

Factory ammunition is usually loaded to magazine length.  You can substantially reduce pressures by seating bullets further out if the throat length allows it, which is the case for my DCRA 7.62 conversion.

 For 800, 900 and 1000 yards, I’m loading the Sierra 168 grain Tipped MatchKing (TMK) seated to a OAL of 2.95 inches, .020 inches off the lands.  Cramming that long bullet in the case to a 2.81 OAL reduces case volume significantly with a corresponding pressure increase.  I’m not seeing any load data specific for the TMKs, yet we know that when seated to the same length as the SMK, they must result in higher pressures for the same charge weight. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2026 at 12:45pm
^^^ THIS regarding seating depth.
I seat with one full caliber in the case neck (ignoring the boat tail.)you won't get a to the lands in even a brand new .303 barrel so I split the difference between bullet run-out & jump to lands.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2026 at 1:07pm
Absolutely, a good rule of thumb Shamu. Especially with tangent shaped ogives. I experimented with the secant ogive 168 TMK and accuracy improved significantly by seating closer to the lands.  I did not want to risk getting so close that it could be jammed into the lands, so settled on 0.020” off the lands. That Hornady OAL gage is a very useful tool.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2026 at 3:33pm
I'm actually seating pretty much to the longest COAL that will feed from my magazines.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2026 at 9:50pm
what happened to your avitar shamu - its distracting 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sapper740 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2026 at 2:56am
I always choose the longer COAL of either the maximum COAL allowed by the magazine or the COAL allowed by being .025" off the lands.  For some rifles, however I'll choose to single load if I get unsatisfactory accuracy with a COAL based on the magazine length.  I have a civilian M.L.E. target rifle that has massive freebore, so much that any bullet I load would be 1/2" outside of the case if I attempted to load it .025" off the lands which makes me wonder if the rifle was originally chambered for one of the pre-MkVII rounds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2026 at 4:26am
Not too likely bullets for a No. 4 (or No. 1 for that matter) can be seated to within .025 of the lands and still be magazine length. Not with any of the bullets I tried anyway, but perhaps with a heavy round nose bullet? The closest I got to that was with the Lothar Walther barrel I fitted last year.  I did not do any reaming of the chamber and set headspace to minimum.  IIRC, OAL with a 174 SMK is about 3.11 at touch. 

The nice BSA barrel I shot out on that rifle had a very long throat, jump to the lands was over 0.5 inches.  I hadn’t shot any appreciable amount of cordite loads, but about 10,000 founds of NC powder. Your MLE could have that much throat erosion from the years shot with cordite.  A borescope pic would tell the tale. 

I have wondered if the rifling lead dimensions were changed after the Mk VII cartridge was introduced in new production barrels, but haven’t found anything to indicate this.  I suspect that the thinking was the rifle should be able to chamber and fire all previous marks of ammunition. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2026 at 10:52am
I tried that with some 215 Gr RN bullets I was gifted.
It wasn't even close, If I wanted my self-imposed minimum seating depth of one full caliber!

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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