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britrifles View Drop Down
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Points: 8404 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2024 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by paddyofurniture paddyofurniture wrote:

In WWI my PaPere told me the way people cleaned a Enfield bore was to use a metal funnel, fill up the funnel with piss, next lots of hot water, and then oil the bore.

He said it worked every time. I guess the ammonia in piss neutralize the corrosive powder remains. 

I next asked how to you clean artillery?

The piss would dissolve copper fouling, so not a bad idea. The hot water would flush out the salts left by the corrosive primer and neutralize the piss.  Oil the bore prevents pitting/rust from the high humidity and rain.  They had it figured out long ago….now we pay $40 for a bottle of “solvent”.  

But, in some seriousness, the average infantry soldier only concerned themselves with reliable function and “minute of man” accuracy out to 200 yards, rarely beyond that. Now we come along 80 years later and want to shoot 10 inch X rings at 1000 yards…so we have to pay attention to the minutia of variables to achieve that.  And we don’t have a source of cheap new barrels either.

The two pitted No. 4 barrels I have (DCRA 7.62 and No. 4 T)  I’m fairly certain were a result of ineffective cleaning and sitting for many years in our humid basement in Cornwall, Ontario.  Those were new barrels my Dad had fitted.  These bores have a “etched” surface on the grooves.  Fortunately, they are not bad enough to really have much affect on accuracy. 
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paddyofurniture View Drop Down
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Points: 7942 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2024 at 3:16pm
Indoor plumbing was better.

Hoadie, you are twenty five months older than me.
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Shamu View Drop Down
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Points: 20510 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2024 at 4:18pm
What always "got me" was the Firearms Sgt. staring at your thumbnail down the bore To proclaim it "clean & shiny", or "did you  forget to weed that bore? Get yer bl**dy thumbnail cleaned"! after the 3 wet, 3 dry, 1 oil" regimen.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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paddyofurniture View Drop Down
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Points: 7942 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2024 at 4:21pm
Good to hear!
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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Some time ago I started into the routing off cleaning with Sweets and JB bore paste. Initially I tried the red because I was cautious about understanding any abrasive properties that would contribute to damage unwittingly on my behalf.
A few years ago I picked up a very small tub of the grey. What I was able to determine was an almost immediate noticeable impact on repeatability for some of my hunting rifles using just the red only.
I used very sparingly only a little bit of the compound on some quality bore patches wrapped around an undersized bore brush. When I started cleaning with Kroil in between bouts is when I could honestly say I understood a marked improvement in accuracy especially with hunting rifles that had only been cleaned with ordinary bore cleaners and traditional measures I had frequently used in the past.
I think I could honestly say that the Jb products are one of the very few products that actually worked as intended or advertised regardless of what sort of merchandise or task specific purpose for what I was intending to accomplish in my life.
Even though I purchased the grey, more than any other time I usually pull the red out because a little bit will go a long way at least for how Ive been using it. Over time I accumulated multiple undersized bronze brushes, wore out would be the correct term that I maintain in a small plastic container in my tool chest.
That patch will come out black as coal even in a well maintained arm. If you ever cleaned a new Browning marked rifle and saw that rust like fouling that comes out of the bore JB will remove it. I suspect that's residue from whatever powders they use in proofing or test firing. Its very difficult to remove what ever it may be. JB will clear it right out before firing at home and for first trip to the range.
Reduced fouling for random use like hunting is probably the best benefit I get out of it. One oily patch or so usually does the trick and mirror brite results which reduces cleaning effort and potential damaging effects over time is what I think overall.
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Points: 8404 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2024 at 5:21pm
Doco, 

I’ve got both grey and red JB. Can’t say I’ve found differences in them yet, I have not used the red nearly as much, supposed to be a finer grade of polish. 

Your results seem to be consistent with mine as evidenced by borescope images and results on the target. I had also used a worn bronze brush with a patch wrapped around it and a light smear of JB until recently.  After just several uses, the brush wears down to groove diameter. I think it’s using a new brush with JB there is some risk with some barrels to put scratches/grooves in the lands.  That’s something I don’t want to take a chance on, so I now use a Parker Hale jag.

I can’t see a lot of difference in the borescope images between using a brush and using a PH jag when they are both used with a patch wrapped around them. The brush may clean to the corners of the grooves a bit better than the jag. 

The Kroil seems to be a necessary component to this. I wet the bore with Kroil on a patch first. Then with a clean patch, put a bit of Kroil on it then rub a small dab of JB into the patch on the palm of my hand then wrap it around the jag. This makes a tight cylinder shape fitting the bore snugly.  10 to 20 strokes and the patch comes out black and the barrel is very clean. Then clean the bore of all JB with patches and more Kroil.  The throat needs the most attention with JB. Just a few passes the full length of the barrel is sufficient, then 10 to 15 more for the first 6 to 8 inches of barrel in front of the chamber. 

As they say, the devil is in the details. But, the key to success is also in the details….
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I've used regular "gun oil" with the JB, & it seems great, have you doe a comparison with that & Kroil?
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Points: 8404 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2024 at 1:56pm
No, have not, but see no reason why that would not work.  Kroil might be able to penetrate the shallow “fire cracking” on the surface better.  I don’t recall where I read about using Kroil with JB. 

I add Kroil to Hoppes 9 for regular cleaning, about 1 part Kroil to 3 parts Hoppes.  Still won’t remove hard carbon though. 
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Points: 335 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayhem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2024 at 3:43pm
I use a nylon bristle brush with Ioso bore paste and haven't seen any issues as yet.  

I run a dry turbo brush (brass loops rather than bristles) through a few times first and then follow up with some Hoppe's number 9 and a three dry patches.  Depending on the colour of the patches, I then use Helmar carbon remover and/or Helmar copper remover.  Finish with a wet mop of G96 and back into the safe they go.

I only use the Ioso paste if my method above doesn't return clean patches within 3-5 dry patches after the solvents have been used.
.303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Points: 8404 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2024 at 4:38pm
Mayhem, does Helmar remove the hard carbon from the throat? The only way you really can tell is to borescope.  I don’t think we can get that product in the US, but so far, I’ve not found anything that removes the hard carbon except a paste like JB.  Even if bronze brushes are used.  Soaking in Hoppes 9 for weeks and months won’t remove it either. Not in my experience anyway. 

By “hard carbon” I mean the dark grey/black carbon coating on the lands and grooves in the first few inches of bore forward of the chamber. This area gets exposed to a combination of high pressures and high temps and the carbon gets “ironed in” by the bullet as well. Think of how diamonds are formed.   Boretech C4 was the most effective carbon remover solvent for the bore I have tried , except that it just wouldn’t get that “hard carbon” out of the throat where it has the most affect. 

I wouldn’t think there would be any problem using a nylon brush with bore paste. 
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Mayhem View Drop Down
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Points: 335 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayhem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2024 at 3:36pm
I only have a little over 200 rounds though this barrel and thus far, I haven't observed a hard carbon ring.  One thing I forgot to mention is that every second time I clean, I do use a chamber brush.

A friend of mine has had good results with using Ioso paste on a chamber brush to remove the hard carbon ring.  
.303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Points: 8404 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2024 at 4:10am
I shot the No. 4 T on Saturday, 40 rounds.  I did my routine cleaning with Hoppes 9, PH jag and 1.5 x 3 inch patch.  

First two patches when I got home, let it soak overnight. 
Third patch the next morning, the green is light copper fouling. 
Fourth patch 24 hours after the shoot, not much fouling came out
Fifth a dry patch, looked fairly clean. 

At this point, I would normally wet the bore with Hoppes and put the rifle away muzzle down. If I had more time, I might repeat the above cleaning process for one more day. 




Now, is the bore clean after this? Not even close! A lot of carbon. I’m sure some of this has been building up since I last cleaned with JB about 200 rounds back.


Now, several patches pushed thru the bore with Boretech C4 Carbon Remover, last patch was dry.



Is the bore clean after this? A lot better, but still not that clean. A bit of copper was under that carbon. 



Next time, I’ll take borescope images once a day for a week cleaning with Hoppes 9 every morning and evening and see if some of that carbon comes out.  
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I've been using the Thorroclean system on all my rifles, milsurp & precision rigs and I've given away, or trashed everything else. I experimented with various cleaning products for years after my initial borescope purchase. 

I talked to Frank Green, and I talked to Iosso who makes the Thorroclean products for "Bullet Central". Iosso said the Iosso paste with Kroil or practically any other type oil is the precurser to the Thorroclean system. After back & forth conversations with both Frank and Iosso it was conceeded that you can safely use the product with the correct technique. Like, no harm bronze brushes, bore guide, coated cleaning rod and a bit of regard to straight/controlled passes with the rod. 

The key is to keep the paste suspended in liquid as it's being used in the bore. So, the Thorroclean is Iosso paste suspended in a solution and also used in conjunction with a flush system that further suspends/keeps wet the paste. I am not embellishing here, 20-25 passes with this no odor system and in 5 mins total time, the bore is outstanding. Whatever copper is left in the barrel after this cleaning I just leave it in there. It's filling the micro cracks! 

I also use one caliber larger brush per bore size to hit the carbon ring at the same time as the bore cleaning. 
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