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One piece stock No. 4 Mk I* conversion |
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VinnieBoomBah
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Joined: August 25 2022 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Posted: August 31 2022 at 8:05pm |
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Maybe you had to be there? Not guessing your age or making any assumptions, however often times when I here this argument it's from someone born in the late 60's to early 70's and beyond. I'm counting down to 60 this year but I can recall the barrels of Swedish Mausers and M1 Carbines that gun stores couldn't sell and they just tossed them in there to make room for new production bolt actions well into the 80's. It was also occasionally a matter of economics if you had the old war horse stuck in a closet a mail order stock or even a quick trip to the local 'smith could refresh the old gun a bit. And at least antidotally, there may have been some that had lingering trauma from war time service associated with the rifles in stock format but needed a hunting rifle the change was enough for them to get past prior associations. Some also were cut or had the buttstock removed to slip into a duffle and if the removed section was lost or damaged a sporter replacement may have been easier to come by
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Offline Points: 8404 |
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 4:56am |
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All good questions A Square. I’m like you, much more interested in the LEs in their original configuration. I’m not sure the reasons why such a modifications were done, perhaps because LEs were so cheap at one time this was an economical way to get a sporter that looked more like a hunting rifle. Someone with skill and ability only had the cost of the stock, bedding compound and a few other bits. While we like the looks of a military issue LE, some don’t.
But, what is done is done. There is no restoring this rifle back to its original configuration. If it were me, I would not do anymore cutting, grinding or drilling. Fit a front sight (it must have had one) and enjoy it for what it is. I suspect it will shoot very good if it’s got a decent bore. |
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Goosic
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Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8842 |
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 6:07am |
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What "WAS" done was done. To quote a Phoenix Police Officer as he had his arm around my shoulder many decades ago; "No use in crying over spilled milk son. This boy is tits up!"
Back in the mid to late 60's Parker Hale Ltd. bought thousands upon thousands of No4Mk1&2 recievers "In The White" and sporterized the bejezzus out of them. The Golden State Arms Santa Fe Division in California did the exact same thing with modifying the No4 Enfield as well as Gibbs/Navy Arms. A decade earlier a company in Canada called E.A.L. purchased several thousand No4 action bodies, barrels and whatnot from the Long Branch facility and created their own "Sporterized" version that the CAF and Canadian Rangers were more than happy to aquire. The case can be made about the Envoy and Enforcer as well with both being a Sporterized version of the L39A1 & L42A1 since those were for Civilian/Police use only with Parker Hale producing many of the Enforcers. Take into consideration the, "Commercial Lee Speed." A military rifle that was Sporterized by the same hands that were creating its military counterparts in the same facility. The act of Sporterizing ANY military firearm is as old as the day is long and will continue to be so. Accept it for what it's worth...
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Shamu
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 9:34am |
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To be fair the "collectable" aspect of MilSurps is a fairly recent thing. Barrels of "take your pick for $15" was the norm back then. I still recall being sold my issue (just issued, less than a year before), probably only had 2~300 rounds through it during that year, mummy-wrapped No4 Mk2 for £7.00! I was on the Wing & County shooting team & we only requested them from Central Stores when I discovered them in the "Book of Armaments" by mistake. We were shooting with gawd knows how old No4 Mk1's They were being surplussed off like crazy because the L1A1 "Ess Ell Arr" was coming immediately. I had an FAC (licence) but if you didn't they'd hold it for you till yours arrived & even provide assistance in the form of references, training records & do on. I don't think I didn't know of a sported one in the more rural areas.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Zed
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 9:47am |
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This type of modification is not a new idea.
In the UK, many No4 T rifles were converted to similar spec for target competition's. The "Whitaker Enfield's). Apparently they were accurate!
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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VinnieBoomBah
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Joined: August 25 2022 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 10:09am |
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Ironically if none of them had never been modified, if they had all stayed exactly the same as the day they left the factory there wouldn't be (barring the odd experimental version or something) any collectable or or even interesting variations and forums like this one would have almost nothing to talk about
The same thing pops up on other forums as well, a great example would be vintage car forums that bemoan the scarcity of unmolested Model T's while at the same time there are other forums or sub forums that can't get enough of the 1950's Model T based Hot Rods Chacun à son goût
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Shamu
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 1:56pm |
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Yes, a friend of mine had one. Not as severely modded as this IIRC though. "vive la différence" One thing I really like about this site its its width,many are so specific, partizan & pedantic.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Goosic
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Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8842 |
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 3:45pm |
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I did not know that a No4Mk1 Lee-Enfield was, "NOT" supposed to look like a Parker Hale Custom No4 that my dad had or a Parker Hale Standard No4 that I purchased from a Yellow Front Surplus Store for $9.95 circa 1978. It was not until I was fifteen that I saw a complete fully stocked No4Mk1. I didn't even realize that the tent spikes I had been beating the crap out of for years were in fact No4 MkII LB made bayonets that my dad had purchased from the same store at the staggering sale price of 10 for $1.00. From the moment I first layed eyes on that PH Sporterized No4 Enfield that is what I assumed an Enfield "WAS" supposed to look like and I have been Jaded ever since. I love the look and feel of the full military versions but holding and feeling that shortened and lightened "Sporterized" example with the really cool side mounted scope assembly will always be my true passion.
Six à un une demi-douzaine à l'autre...
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britrifles
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 4:40pm |
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Perhaps if not so many service rifles had been sporterized, the current demand and high prices for an as issued configuration would not exist.
I grew up with several walls in our house full of various Service Rifles, mostly of British origin, plus numerous versions of the Ross rifles. None were sporterized. That collection would be quite valuable today. The Ross Match rifle in particular would be worth a lot, even more that the No. 4 (T) rifles Dad had.
Well, to each his own. But one thing is certain. These rifles are a artifact of our past and we need to preserve what we have. I for one have no intention to do any modifications to my rifles that cannot be easily undone. |
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Goosic
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 5:09pm |
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Place the blame on directly on manufacturers such as Parker Hale, Golden State Arms, Gibbs Rifles, BSA, Charnwood Ordnance, etc that, after there was no practical use for a fully dressed military rifle those people sought to profit by converting whatever military firearm they had into a "Sporting Rifle". Particularly anything with a Mauser action. Fortunately for the Lee-Enfield, it only sees a very small niche in the Sporting Rifle Industries due largely in part to its two piece stock and rear locking lug design. A perfect example of a firearm designed solely for military use but has since been Sporterized beyond belief in its civilian dress is the product of one Eugene Stoner...
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VinnieBoomBah
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 5:24pm |
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And let's not forget without that trend we would not have anything with the name Weatherby on it
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Shamu
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 6:49pm |
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I'm not sure, times change, things that weren't "collectable" become so. They were never made as "collectables", like many things but they became so. I've never sporterised anything that wasn't "Pre Buggered, by Bubba". Even the No4 Mk2 mummy is "de-convertable" in about 10 minutes as I have every orignal part all kept together. I wanted one "sporter", so I bought the bubba'd No5, for the right price, knowing where it was going. ![]() |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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A square 10
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Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Online Points: 16999 |
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Posted: September 01 2022 at 6:59pm |
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im not , as stated before , tossing any stones here , i too remember how cheap and plentiful all milsurps were in the late 50s early 60s , thats wen i got my first one and started shooting surplus amo ,
i do also remember the new hunting rifles were high priced in comparison , i recall all the deer hunting rifles made from milsurps , but seldom did anyone go to anything like this amount of work to do it , i hope it shoots well for you , enjoy it , for the record im in my early 70s
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britrifles
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Posted: September 02 2022 at 5:41am |
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I’m also not trying to criticize anyone here. And I understand why many of these rifles were sporterized too.
Military rifle collecting is not a new thing though. My Dad was a collector, he belonged to an association of Canadian Arms Collectors in the 1960’s. I wouldn’t call myself a “collector”, a real collector is someone like Terrylee. And yes, it seems to have gotten a bit more popular with the interest in reassembling rifles to be “correct” in terms of the configuration of the various parts to match the receiver date. There also was never a lot of interest in the LE’s in the US, a “not invented here” mentality, so it can’t be a good rifle, right? This is where a lot of these notions originated, a “weak springy action”, two piece stock, rear locking lugs, and other criticisms. I won a annual match last year with my No. 4 against shooters with many different vintage military Service Rifles, including the M1, 1903 Springfield, M1917, Mausers, K-31 Swiss, and others. The Match Director was rather surprised someone “with a Lee Enfield” won, which he thought was one of the ugliest rifles made and never shot well. The LE was obviously a very effective service rifle, and I suspect it made a very good hunting rifle in its original and sporterized form. |
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Goosic
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Posted: September 02 2022 at 9:22am |
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Reassembling a firearm using "period correct" pieces to make ii appear original does not make it collectable. It makes it refurbished to a degree and where alot of confusion comes into play with the L-E rifles by way of, "what is period correct."
I recently chatted with an individual over his 1943 U.S. PROPERTY No4Mk1* in that he was adamant about having everything fitted with all the metal bits stamped with a square S and that,"his words now," this sh*tty stock with the yellow specks in the wood HAS to be replaced with that dark wood and the piece with the slits cut in it so it can be collectable once more and worth more than what I paid for it. I took the time to examine his rifle and found that it had been FTR'd some time in 1947 and that the barrel had been changed to a M47C stamped 5 groove but it appeared that the Beechwood stock set was original to the rifle. After explaining how the FTR worked and that what had been done at the factory level and that he should leave well enough alone. He thought about that for a moment and then went out and bought every metal part with a Savage stamp on it, found a walnut stockset with the slits in the upper hand guard and as final touch, found a wore out 2 groove barrel to replace that, "his words again" that hideous and not correct to MY rifle junk barrel. The gunsmith hired to do the work charged this individual over $700.00 in just the labor but, this individual now has a Period Correct 1943 No4Mk1* that he currently has on consignment at a Collectors Warehouse of antique firearms with a Buy It Now price of $2000.00. I asked if I could have that hideous 5 groove barrel and he simply handed it to me and said do whatever you want with it. That barrel is on my Faux Parker Hale currently. This is the issue with collecting the Lee-Enfield rifles in that people today are overlooking What it Was and hyper focusing on What It Needs To Be, for it to be collectable by adding Period Correct pieces, forgetting or not even realizing that those rifles were assembled with whatever pieces were directly in front of the person assembling that part of the rifle at the time it rolled down the assembly line. Especially if it was sent to Fazackerly for Refurbishment. The Sportification of a military rifle, IMHO was derived by the actual producers of those firearms so that those who were once charged with operating them in their respective military configuration could now operate and handle them in their new civilian applications. We have places to properly view original and unmolested military firearms and we also have had firearm manufacturers that took alot of military firearms and Sporterized them. We also have the Backyard Gun Smith that went one step further to produce what the OP to this thread has shared with us. Do not criticize the individual or their firearm of choice be it, Collectable, Original Military application, or Sporterized. Accept it as it is...
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britrifles
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Posted: September 02 2022 at 2:29pm |
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What you described Goosic is not at all unusual, very commonly done with M1 rifles, turning a “mixmaster” of parts back to period correct configuration. And collectors will continue for years doing this, some will try convince the buyer that it’s an “original” issued rifle. Very astute collectors will know the difference. Much more difficult to do with some nations service rifles, as many parts were serialized. My Swedish Mauser carbine has serial numbers on just about every part, and they all match.
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